Subject: Re: A different story about the war in Yugoslavia
From: "Aleksandar Sarovic" <email@example.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.yugoslavia,soc.culture.croatia,soc.culture.slovenia, soc.culture.bosna-herzgvna,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.italian,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture
Quin McLeod <Q.McLeod@avelon.demon.co.uk> wrote in article <firstname.lastname@example.org>...
> Aleksandar Sarovic wrote:
> > A different story about the war in Yugoslavia
> > People in Yugoslavia used to live quite well before 1990. The living standard was > > relatively high and relations between people from six republics with their six > > nations and three religions were normally pretty harmonious. The Serbo-Croat > > speakers in Yugoslavia belonged to the same Slavonic group but were separated by a > > different history and by Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim religion. Yugoslavia had a > > kind of a market economy with over protected workers who often lived by the rule > > that they could always work less than what they were paid for. The lack of > > responsibility at all levels of work gradually destroyed the totality of all > > economical relationships, together with Yugoslavia itself.
> > The last communist Prime Minister of Yugoslavia, Mr. Ante Markovic, tried > > unsuccessfully to make reforms towards market economy and free parliamentary > > elections. There were little interest in federal elections, while the interest in > > local elections was huge. A majority of new candidates in the republics demanded > > absolute control over their republics' resources and blamed Yugoslavia for all > > discomforts of common living. People's economical irresponsibility found its echo > > in political irresponsibility when all republic elected nationalistic candidates. > > All the new leaders in turn sabotaged federal Prime Minister's program which could > > have eventually taken Yugoslavia into the EU.
> Markovic (a Croat) was opposed mainly by the Serb leadership.
How do you know that? Every republic opposed him according to its interests in particular moment and vice versa, but a sabotage started with Slovenia when it refused to pay its obligations to the Federal Budget for undeveloped areas in Yugoslavia.
> > The new presidents of the republics, except from Serbia and Montenegro, did not > > hesitate to secede from Yugoslavia at any price.
> Wrong!! first these republics tried to fowrard the idea of more autonomy > in YU.
This is a fairy tale for naive persons. The separatist leaders wanted more power than any autonomy would have given. Tudjman proposed confederation just to acquire nationalists, not to frighten Croats who were afraid of Yugoslavia, and not to reject Croats who loved Yugoslavia. If you believe him ask yourself why he does not create a Confederation with Slovenia and carry out the signed confederate link with Bosnia?
> > Serbian leaders didn't want > > secession because Serbs lived as indigenous population in all republic except > > Slovenia. The republics were created under the control of president Tito, > > ethnically Croat,
> His mother was Slovenian and he little empathy with any ethnic group.
It was true, with an exception of the following reason:
> > who might be afraid of the largest Serbian nation in Yugoslavia > > so he divided them more than other nations.
> Serbias dominance of YU had help cause the civil war during WW2.
First of all, Serbia did not exist in Yugoslavia between the WWs, so how it could dominate? Of course, the King of Yugoslavia was a Serb and he did not call this country Serbia even though he could. He tried hard to make a happy South Slavic country when he called it Yugoslavia. How it was successfully I don't know just because I did not live in those time, but for sure it was not enough for Croatian nationalists who wanted their own country. However, because of so called Yugoslav domination Ustashe slathered hundreds of thousands of Serbs in W.W.II.
> > The results of referendums in Slovenia, > > Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Macedonia demonstrated that most people from > > those republics except Serbs wanted sovereignty, while most Serbs (including those > > from Serbia and Montenegro) wanted to stay in Yugoslavia. Soon after those > > referendums, leaders from separatist republic stopped negotiating about the future > > of Yugoslavia. Supported by the EU international arbitration commission, they > > proclaimed independence from Yugoslavia, and moreover, that Yugoslavia did not > > exist any more. This move ran against the right to self-determination of the people > > who wanted to remain in Yugoslavia.
> No! the constitution gave the right of republics to leave YU.
It was just one sentence which did not explain how it could be carried out. Beside it, the constitutional low gave many rights to Yugoslavia to defend itself in every attempt of its destruction. Further by the same law the Serbs were the constitutional people in Croatia which means no one constitutional change could be made without their support. It is a moral problem when you quote a part of the constitutional law you like and forget to quote others which are very much related to the problem.
The only legal disintegration of Yugoslavia would have to be made through negotiation which failed because it did not find a solution equally acceptable for all of the republic. The constitutional problems in the normal democratic World, are going to be negotiate until they will be solved regardless of time. Only Serbian and Montenegrian leaders remained at the negotiation at the end so they are the only ones who were not responsible for the war.
Furthermore, Yugoslavia and most of the European countries (not Croatia), signed the Helsinki Convention which is the International Law and which states no one country border should be changed by force but only by negotiations. It had nothing to do with Croatia, except if we look for the Croatian responsibility (Slovenian too) for acting against the International law. Croatia got the independence on its acting against the law, it started as a criminal state and continued as a criminal state, and I do not see a bright future for nothing based on a crime.
> > In the Summer of 1991, the Slovenian government unilaterally declared sovereignty > > and cut all relationship with Yugoslavia. Because no deal was made about Slovenia's > > separation, the Yugoslav Federal Army used power to protect the territorial > > integrity of the country and was attacked by Slovenian Territorial Defense forces. > > At that time a well organized propaganda started all over the world with headlines > > such as: "Serbian communist army attacked free Slovenian nation."
> But this was true.
It was not true. Slovenia attacked Yugoslavia.
> > The true > > situation was very different. In those days, the President, the Prime Minister,and > > Minister of foreign Affairs of Yugoslavia were ethnic Croats.
> Puppets on strings?
> >The Yugoslav Federal > > Army came from all ethnic groups, including Slovenians.
> Come on, the JNA was 90% Serb in officer ranks.
Yugoslav Federal Army came from the all nations in exactly proportion with number of the peoples, because to be a solder was an obligation for every man in former Yugoslavia. Serbs had 40% solders in YFA. Lower range officers may had 2-3 percentage more Serbs because they traditionally like the army, but the highest level officers were chosen exactly by the national key proportionally to each nation.
> > The war lasted only a few > > days, while the Federal Army had almost ten times higher casualties than Slovenian > > forces because it did not have clear orders to fight in Slovenia. > > > > In Croatia and Bosnia, the situation was more complex because of the large local > > Serbian populations. The Serbs were one of the founding peoples under the > > Constitutions of Croatia and Bosnia, and they did not want to separate from > > Yugoslavia.
> The Serbs felt they were the masters of YU just like the English think > they are the masters of the UK.
Never heard for it. But anyway feelings do not count, only acts.
> > Because of that, the new Croatian Parliament hurried up in 1990 to take > > the constitutional right from the Serb people and redefine them as a minority. > > After that, the Serbs proclaimed the parts of Croatia where they had been living > > for centuries as a majority to be the Serb Republic of Krajina. The Croatian > > government responded by importing weapons from Hungary and attacking these ethnic > > Serb areas.
> No! the Serbs started the fighting. Remember the 19 Croat policemen??
These policemen attacked the Serb village Borovo Selo and were killed there just because they attacked first.
> > The Krajina Serbs formed their own territorial defense forces, got > > their weapons from the Yugoslav Federal Army, and confronted the Croatian forces. > > The Croatian Government blamed the Yugoslav Federal Army for aggression and lost of > > territory, attacking its barracks in Croatia in order to get heavy weapons. After > > that, the Yugoslav Federal Army really attacked Croatian forces which ended in > > destruction of Vukovar and the siege of Dubrovnik. > > > > Well organized international propaganda again blamed the Serbs.
> That is what we call the truth.
I salute your blame of well organized international propaganda.
> > At that time, the > > EU and the UN offered help to stop the war in Croatia. By the Cyrus Vance plan, > > signed by the representatives from Yugoslavia, Croatia, Krajina and UN, the > > Yugoslav Federal Army pulled out of Croatia, while Serb held territories in Croatia > > were to be protected by the UN forces until the problem would be solved through > > negotiations. In that plan, there was no condition about the future of the Republic > > of Krajina, but later, under the pressure from the US and Germany, a condition was > > included that it had to remain part of Croatia, something the Serbs could not > > accept.
> Krajina was being used as a base for Bosnian war operations and attacks > on Croatia.
It would be the same if you said the USA have planed to use Alabama to attack Texas.
> > In January of 1992, Germany further undermined Yugoslavia by supporting unilateral > > violent secessions and recognizing Slovenia and Croatia as independent states. > > Other countries followed suit. Hence, the borders of Yugoslavia were changed not > > peacefully, through mutual negotiations, as required by international laws (UN, > > Helsinki Convention, etc.) but by force and through international support for > > unilateral secessions.
> The Serbs were not interested in talking in peace time. They thought > they could > get what they wanted by force.
The Serbs and Montenegrins were the only peoples who remained at the negotiations about future of Yugoslavia which meant they were the only ones who wanted to solve the problem peacefully.
> >In April of 1992, the US and the EU recognized Bosnia and > > Herzegovina as an independent state. It did not matter that one third of the > > Bosnian population were Serbs (constituent people) did not want to secede from > > Yugoslavia, or that they were traditionally farmers who owned almost two thirds of > > the Bosnian land. Finally, according to international codes, Bosnian and Croatian > > governments did not fulfill the required conditions for recognition, because they > > had no control over the territories of those republics within the pre-war borders. > > In the destruction of Yugoslavia international laws were used thus very > > selectively, to say the least. > > > > At the time when the US recognized Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croat and Muslim solders > > and officers had already deserted from the Yugoslav Federal Army. When the Serb > > people in Bosnia and Herzegovina formed their own army, they took hold of most of > > the Federal Army's heavy weapons. Muslims and Croats held most of the arms > > factories, however. After the international recognition, the Muslim and Croat > > dominated government was encouraged to rule over the whole of Bosnia and > > Herzegovina, which the Serbs could not accept. This trigged off the war. Once > > again, well organized international propaganda labeled the Serbs as aggressors. > > > > Moreover, the US-led UN blamed Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) for the war in > > Bosnia and called upon the Yugoslav government to stop it, or face economic > > sanctions.
> The Serbs started it and had by far the most blood on their hands.
When did the war start? Did it start when the west Herzegovinians attacked YFA and demolished its barrack in Mostar? Did it started in Sarajevo when Serbian wedding party was shot. Did it started when a big fighter for freedom and democracy Juka Prazina raised up in arms in Sarajevo? Did it start when numerous YFA soldiers were killed in Sarajevo and Tuzla? Did it start when the Croats and Muslims violated the constitutional law of Bosnia and Yugoslavia.
> > At that time, Yugoslavia had no power to stop the war any more, because > > the Serbs in Bosnia created the Serb Republic and acted very much on their own. It > > goes without saying that Yugoslavia could not stop the Muslim and Croat army > > operations. After a massacre that happened in Sarajevo when an explosion killed a > > number of people waiting for bread, the UN imposed economic sanctions against > > Yugoslavia. Later on, the British "Independent" found there were serious > > indications that the Muslims had done it on purpose, to blame the Serbs. Some > > UNPROFOR soldiers from Britain confirmed that many indications pointed at the > > Muslim army killing their own people in order to accuse the Serbs and to involve > > NATO in the war on their side. > > > > The US-led UN passed many resolutions in favor of Muslims and other Yugoslav ethnic > > groups against Serbs. They recognized all the separatist republic, but not the new > > Yugoslavia. The Serbs of the former Yugoslavia were the only people who were denied > > the right of self-determination. Furthermore, the UN proclaimed six Muslim towns in > > Bosnia as UN "safe areas" protected by the NATO air power. These areas were > > supposed to be demilitarized, which in fact never happened. They were a safe place > > for the Muslim army to prepare their attacks against the Serbs.
> So your Mladic went in and killed all the men in the safe areas.
Mladic is not mine and I don't believe he did it.
> > NATO attacked only > > the Serb army even though the Muslim and Croat forces launched most of the attacks > > including a number of attacks on the UN troops.
> Any facts?
The facts were reported to UN by the UN observers and they have them. The Serbs captured 70% of Bosnian territory in the beginning of the war and after that they did not have any interest to attack. Muslims and Croats were normally unsatisfied with it, but they did not try to solve the problem through negotiation just because they wanted the whole Bosnia and Herzegovina, something the Serb could not accept. Therefore, all the time they tried to recapture the land by force.
> > The Bosnian army had twice as many > > soldiers as the Bosnian Serbs. Croatia had a well equipped army, with whole > > arsenals of weaponry brought in for the Muslim and Croat forces in contravention of > > the arms embargo declared by the UN. The retired Croatian general Spegelj and the > > former Prime minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina Silajdzic confessed publicly that > > they had received weapons from Germany and Iran. Mr. Clinton, the President of the > > US, recently confessed knowledge about that. Therefore, call for the lifting of > > arms embargo from the Croats and Muslims was a peace of propaganda.
> It was a disgrace that there was an arms embargo in the first place. > Surely a victim has the right to protect itself.
So did Yugoslavia.
> It was only Russia that stopped the west openly giving arms to the > Croats and Muslims.
True, but the EU was concern about it too, just because it would be much harder to control the situation.
> > The preceding facts show there is little evidence of present Yugoslavian > > responsibility for the war, yet Yugoslavia suffered under the economic sanctions > > for four years.
> Not true in reality though.
Give the evidence for Yugoslavia's responsibility for the war. However, according to Yugoslav economists and politicians, the economic sanctions have given Yugoslavia more damage than what would have done directly a participation in the war
> > It is well known that the Croatian army was fighting in Bosnia > > against Muslims and Serbs, with no economic or any other sanctions. The US, in the > > manner of a colonial empire, underwrote the Croat & Bosnian Confederation which > > "legalized" Croatia's military involvement in the Bosnian war. The Serb people who > > were the main builders of Yugoslavia after both World wars are not allowed to be > > united. In 1995, the Croatian army invaded the UN protected Serb territory in > > Western Slavonia, killed hundreds of civilians, and carried out total ethnic > > cleansing of the Serbs with no UN response. So this territory was not kept under > > the UN protection until problem could be solved through negotiations, but until > > Croatia succeeded in building an army in spite of the UN arms embargo. After that, > > the UN lost credibility in the eyes of Serbs who than occupied two UN "safe areas" > > in Bosnia from which the Muslims continuously attacked and killed the Serb people > > in the villages nearby. The Croatian government declared the Serb war success in > > Bosnia to be a "threat" to Croatia, attacked and took two Serb towns in Bosnia. > > > > In Croatia itself, the present government has allowed and supported glorification > > of the country's nazi-fascist past. The W.W.II fascists, responsible for genocide > > against the Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and other people are back in Croatia today, some > > even in power. Although, a large number of Croats fought against fascism during > > W.W.II, a large number of streets are not called by their name any more, and > > thousands of their monuments were destroyed all over Croatia. On the other hand, > > the street name of the Croat fascist ideologist Budak appeared in the town of > > Split, and the name of the new Croat currency is Kuna used only in the nazi-fascist > > Croatia. Everyone who has read the government-controlled Croatian newspaper or > > watched TV could easily see that the Croatian government has built the unity of the > > Croat people around its chauvinistic hatred of the Serbs. The Croatian president > > Tudjman said publicly that he was happy because his wife is neither a Serb or a > > Jew. The Croatian Minister of Defense Susak (a pizza salesman from Toronto) raised > > his hand publicly in a fascist salute to greet his army. In 1991, a five members of > > his body guard executed the family Zec with their fourteen year old daughter in the > > capital town of Croatia, Zagreb, only because they were Serbs. The killers admitted > > everything before the Croatian Court but were released because of alleged irregular > > court procedure.("Globus", Zagreb). This trial probably did not have intention to > > punish the killers but was a perfidious act which had to frighten the Serbs to get > > away from Croatia. Moreover, the Croatian president Tudjman gave a medal for the > > heroic act in war to Rimac who was one of the killers. The leader of Croatian > > regular volunteer forces Mercep was suspected for leading the execution of still > > not defined number of the Serb civilians in the town Gospic before the war but the > > investigation never started. It is not hard to imagine what happened later in the > > war. Everything I have written is well known or could be easily verified but the > > World repeatedly closed its eyes.
> Croatia does have a problem in this area but it is in a way a responce > to years of national repression.
I would call it a inferiority complex.
> > Because of that, in 1995, the Croatian government mobilized 250,000 troops to > > capture the territory of the Serb Republic of Krajina, allegedly protected by the > > UN. With silent support of the US and Germany, the attack started. In this moment > > NATO destroyed the Serb radar and telecommunication system what was reported as a > > "mistake". The international community very concerned when the Yugoslav Army > > started to crush the Croat armed insurrection in 1991, was indifferent when the > > Serbs suffered the aggression.
> Was this not a case of their own medicine.
Not at all. Every army in the World would attack Croatia in case Croatia attacks its barracks, so YFA did. No one normal country in the world would carry out such a policy as Croatia did against Serbs.
> > The Republic of Krajina had incomparably less > > inhabitants than Croatia and was exhausted after years of unjustified UN economic > > sanctions. The Yugoslav Army had pulled out of Croatia in 1991 with the signed > > obligation for the UN and Yugoslavia under the Vance plan to protect the Serbs in > > Krajina. Under the subsequent pressure from the UN, Yugoslavia did not protect them > > and the whole Serb population fled to Bosnia and Serbia. Approximately thousand > > elder Serb civilians were killed after the Croatian operation Storm was finished > > ("Globus" Zagreb). The UN failed to defend its protected area from the Croat attack > > and helped to arrange the exodus of the Serb people. In Croatia today remain > > probably less than ten percent of the 600,000+ Serbs, 12% of Croatia's population > > before the war, who lived there for centuries. This second Croat genocide against > > the Serb population in this century, was supported by the World's most powerful > > countries and the United Nations.
> What about the thousends of Hungerians and Croats in Serbia/Vojavodina? > They were thrown out in terror. Thats a reason why Hungery supported > Croatia.
Hungary supported Croatia just because Germany support Croatia. No one Hungarian or Croat was thrown out in terror. Many of them run awey as well as the Serbs just to escape the mobilization.
> > The UN involvement in Bosnia was similar. After the last massacre in Sarajevo, the > > Serb government denied responsibility and called for a independent investigation, > > but the UN representative quickly and "precisely" accused the Serbs for doing this > > from the place near the battle field. The Serb government did not have any motive. > > For the first time they were offered with the right to make the confederation > > to Yugoslavia and they accepted negotiations. On the other hand, the Muslim > > government took benefit from the massacre because it would stop an unpleasant > > negotiation about future of Bosnia and NATO was definitely involved in the war on > > their side by massive air strikes and rapid reaction forces. Later on, ITAR-TASS > > informed that the chief of the UN staff in Sarajevo, colonel Andrej Demurenko had > > made his own investigation about massacre and found that the UN report was a > > forgery because the grenade could not be launched from the reported position. > > > > The war in Bosnia stopped after the agreement in Dayton where the Serbs got 49% of > > Bosnian territory. If it had happened earlier the war probably would not started. > > The USA and Germany made a hefty contribution to the damage in this region by their > > disastrous leadership of the UN and the EU. Their contribution to the destruction > > of the former Yugoslavia created chaos. Their continuos double standard policy > > encouraged one side and pressed another, which extended the war and prolonged the > > suffering of the people. The result of their policy in the former Yugoslavia was an > > ethnically pure Croatia,
> Rubbish!!! Croatia still has many Serbs living there.
Only in Zagreb and Istra still live a few Serbs who are not forced to wear a colored sign on sleeves but were treated very badly just because they were Serbs. More than 100.000 Serbs live in Eastern Slavonia which is a part of Croatia but is not jet under Croatian control. They will probably go away after Croatia gets control there if Croatia's policy will not be changed toward Serbs. In Serbia live 400.000 registered Serb refugees from Croatia.
> > a tragically split Bosnia and Herzegovina, multiethnic > > Serbia and Montenegro under economic sanctions, and the war.
> Montenegro now wants independance and Kosova must get it soon. > All Serbs in one Serbia was what Milosovic promised!
You better be concern for Croatia because same things may happen to it.
> > This kind of policy > > could also destroy the UN with unforseeable consequences. > > > > I will not attempt to explain why the US and Germany have been doing this, although > > one could guess about it. Let their leaders explain us why have they taken their > > countries upon the road of support of the clearly neo-nazi Croatian regime and the > > militant Muslim clique of Sarajevo. Until they do, we should continue rising this > > question.
> Maybe they were sick of seeing night after night what the Serbs were > doing in the former YU. The Serbs were the real Nazis in that war.
No they have their media under absolute control. They create people's opinion and after that act according to people's opinion. Fortunately, they could not hide the truth and therefore they are never going to far. Criminals exist in every nation but it is impossible because of them named any nation as nazi. If the leaders of a country are nazi as Croatian are, you can call this country Nazi but not the people..
> > To solve the Yugoslav problem there is only one way to follow: all sides have to be > > treated equally. If the UN and World's leaders want to interfere in this conflict > > their position has to be neutral. They could exercise strong economic and political > > pressure on ALL sides in the conflict to obey the human right rules and to make a > > just agreement on all the future relationships in the region. Any other kind of > > engagement has failed and will fail again hurting all sides involved.
> Too late. The whole situation only showed how useless Europe is at > solving its own > problems. I saw the problems coming but I did not think the war would be > so bad.
> Responsible politicians don't attract Yugoslav/Croat ect.. voters only > when they do will peace really arrive there.
> Quin Aleksandar Sarovic