kenavo - 12:30pm May 4, 1997 EST (#190 of 195)
To the readers of this forum;
Please read "Serbia's Secret War," by Dr. Philip Cohen. This book will easily set straight the ocean of lies that Dorich and his "Saintly Serbs" on this have propagated about Serb behavior in WWII. Chapter 4, pages 85-112, are especially interesting: serb losses during WWII. It makes hash out of the drivel that Dorich and his Saintly Serbs are pushing on this forum. The most anti-Jewish group in WWII Europe were Serbs.
And don't believe anything about Dr. Cohen's grandfather being expelled from pre WWII Yugoslavia and that he is trying to avenge this. He is a Jewish academic with no connections at all with the former Yugoslavia(s).
KENAVO (Mirko Bodul)
sofija - 02:10pm May 4, 1997 EST (#191 of 195)
I read Dr. Cohen's book and like a lot of stuff written by people with an axe to grind (whether that axe is pro-Serb, pro-Croat, pro-Muslim, anti-Serb, anti-Muslim, anti-Croat, etc.) it is more than just historical distortion, it is full of errors (conscious errors maybe? I don't know). If Cohen is right then most of the more non-biased people who have written on the Balkans are crazy and the libraries throughout the world are littered with books by ignorant academics. As for "Dr." Cohen's credentials as an academic, spend some time in the citation indexes and data bases of major libraries and I think you'll find zilch.
If readers of this forum who are not connected culturally to this Balkan morass want some unbiased reading that brings all the sides to task for their sins and recognizes their grievances try: Misha Glenny "The Fall of Yugoslavia," David Owen "Balkan Oddysey," Susan Woodward "Balkan Tragedy," and Robert Kaplan "Balkan Ghosts." These efforts present a complex picture that can't be boiled down to a blame just one side fantasy.
kenavo - 03:46pm May 4, 1997 EST (#192 of 195)
Being vague about errors in someone's book is very convenient; how about some examples.
I don't see any footnotes from your writings. At least Cohen's book has footnotes, while most of the Sainted Serbs on this forum draw from works of fiction or their from the legends in their own minds.
Robert Kaplan and David Owen I would write off as people with axes to grind. You might suggest David Rieff's book, Slaugtherhouse... Or is that too truthful for Serbs to read?
sofija - 04:11pm May 4, 1997 EST (#193 of 195)
You want footnootes? I have almost a 100 of them in an article I just published in "World Affairs" (the oldest journal on international issues in the U.S., going on over 143 years). It's entitled "Ancient Hatreds or Elite Manipulation? Memory and Politics in the Former Yugoslavia." It's in the Spring 1997 issue and you can find it at most large bookstores like Borders if you don't like going to libraries. Wow! What a chance for a plug.
Delineating Cohen's errors is easy and formidable because listing them would take up pages and pages of space. If it makes you feel better, just believe that I am not credible and be happy. Yes I have read Rieff's stuff. He's got about a .500 batting average (1/2 the picture). How 'bout George Kenney? How do you feel about his credibility? How 'bout Tudjman's new sanitized effort now out in bookstores? Believe me, I have read all the stuff and all the sad efforts at moral whitewashing by all the sides in the Balkans. The truth hurts, something Serbs will have to deal with and something the Croats are trying to forget.
Have you ever considered the notion that Croatia has won the war and soon all the Serbs will be gone? Since so much of Croatian identity since Starcevic has been tied up with demonization of the "other" (Serbs), what will Croatians have to rally around now? Of course this works both ways.
doctor13 - 05:01pm May 4, 1997 EST (#194 of 195)
Perhaps kenova will see that Mr. Arnold Harris and his wife Stefanaj Prasnjak Harris have the opportunity to read the following, just to refresh their memories.
FOR FAIR USE ONLY
The letter that follows was written by the Croatian politician, Prvilsav Grizogono, on February 8, 1942 to Archbishop Dr. Alojzije Stepinac.
"I am writing to you as a man to a man, as a Christian to a Christian. I have been meaning to do this for months hoping that the dreadful news from Croatia would cease so that I could collect my thoughts and write to you in peace.
For the last ten months Serbs have been killed and destroyed in Croatia in the most ruthless manner and milliards of their property is being destroyed. The blushes of shame and anger cover the faces of every honest Croat.
The slaughter of Serbs began from the very first day of the establishment of the Independent State of Croatia (Gospic, Gudovac, Bosanska Krajina, etc) and has coninued relentlessly to this very day.
The horror is not only in the killing. The killing includes everybody, old men, women, and children. With accompanying barbarian torture. These innocent Serbs have been impaled, fire has been lit on their bare chests, they have been roasted alive, burned in their homes and churches while still living, covered with boiling water and then their skin peeled off and salt poured into their wounds, their eyes have been pulled out, their ears, noses and tongues cut off, the priests have had their beards and moustaches raised together with their skulls, their sex organs severed and put into their mouth, they have been tied to trucks and then dragged along the ground, nails have been pressed into their heads, their heads nailed to the floor, they have been thrown alive into wells and abysses and bombs thrown to them, iron nails have broken their heads, children thrown into flames, into boiling water, into lime klins, their legs thorn from them, their heads smashed against walls, broken their backs against rocks and tree stumps and many other horrible torture was perpetrated, such as normal people can hardly imagine.
The rivers Sava, Drava, the Danube and their tributaries have carried thousands and thousands of their corpses. Dead bodies have been found with the inscription: 'direction Belgrade - travelling to king Peter. In a boat which was found on the Sava river there was a heap of children's heads with the head of a woman (who could have been a head of one of the mothers of the children) with the inscription: 'Meat for the Jovanova Market in Belgrade'.
Horrifying is the case of Mileva Bozinic from Stabandza whose child was removed from her womb. There was also the case of the roasted heads in Bosnia, the vessels full of Serbian blood, the cases of Serbs being forced to drink their warm blood of their slaughtered kin. Countless women, girls and children, mothers in front of their children and children in front of their mothers were raped or else sent off to Ustashi camps to serve the Ustashi, rapes even took place on the altars of Orthodox churches. In the Petrinja county a son was forced to rape his own mother. The slaughter of the Serbs in the Glina Orthodox church and the murder of Serbs on the altar of the Kladusa church is without precedent in history. There are detailed and original accounts of all these horrors. Even the Germans and the Italians were astouned by these crimes. They photographed a huge number of cases of such slaughter. The Germans are saying that the Croatians did this also during the 30-years War and that is why there has been a saying in Germany since then: God save us from the plague, hunger and the Croats. The Srem Germans despise us because of this and behave in a more human fashion with the Serbs. (End, Part I)
doctor13 - 05:02pm May 4, 1997 EST (#195 of 195)
Letter from Croatian politician, Prvilsav Grizogono, on February 8, 1942, to Archbishop Dr. alojzije Stepinac. (Begin, Part II)
The Italians photographed a vessel with 3.5 kilograms of Serbian eyes as well as a Croat who wore a necklace strung with Serbian eyes and another one who came to Dubrovnik with a belt on which cut Serbian tongues were hanging.
The horrors of the camps in which the thousands of Serbs were killed or were left to die from exposure, hunger and cold weather, are too terrible to mention. The Germans have been talking about a camp in Lika where there were thousands of Serbs but when the Germans got there they found the camp empty dredged in blood and bloody clothing. In that camp it has been said a Serbian bishop also lost his life. Thousands upon thousands of Serbs in the camp of Jasenovac are still being tortured as they are spending this fierce winter in wooden Gipsy shacks with no straw or covering and with a ration of two potatoes per day. In the history of Europe there have been no similar cases. One would have to go to Asia at the time of Tamerlan or Genghis-Khan or to Africa to the countries of their bloodthirsty rulers to come upon similar situations. These events have shamed the name of Croatia for centuries to come. Nothing can absolve us fully from this ever again. We will not be able to tell even the last wretched man in the Balkans about our thousand year old Croatian culture, because even the Gypsies never perpetrated such cruelties.
Why am I writing this to you when you are not a political personage and can not bear responsibility for all this? Here is why: in all these unprecedented barbarian crimes which are more than Godless, our Catholic church participated in two ways. A large number of clergy, priests, friars, and organized Catholic youth took active part in all this. It has also happened that Catholic priests became camp guards and Ustashi accomplices and so approved of the torture and slaughter of Christians. A Catholic priest even personally slaughtered an Orthodox clergyman. They could not have done all this without the permission of their bishops and if they did, then they would have had to lose their jobs and be taken to court. As this did not happen it means that their bishops granted them permission.
Secondly, the catholic church made use of all this to convert the surviving Serbs. And while the soil was steaming from the innocent victims' blood, while groans shuttered the chests of the surviving victims, the priests, friars, nuns carried in one hand the Ustashi daggers and in the other their prayer books and rosaries. The whole of Srem is inundated with the leaflets written by bishop Aksamovic and printed in his printing shop in Djakovo, calling upon the Serbs to save their lives and property by converting to catholicism. It was as if our church wanted to show that it could destroy souls just as the Ustashi authorities destroy bodies. It is an even greater blot on the Catholic church as at the same time many Orthodox churches, all the Orthodox monasteries have been confiscated, their property plundered as well as many historical treasures. Even the Patriarchate church in Sremski Karlovci has not been spared. All this violence against conscience and the spirit has brought even greater disgrace to the Croat nation and name." (End)