StSava - 09:08pm May 2, 1997 EST (#162 of 195)
When you can't seem to find the origin of the stench in this war, take Doctor 13's advice, follow the money.
I will try to give you at least what my personal view is on this Bosnian war. First of all, there is no way that you can disassociate oil from the scenario. Nor can your ignore the fact that King Fahd purchased $13 Billion in American made aircraft right about the time things were getting heated up and bombing loomed on the horizon. But lets follow the money for a moment not concentrating on the spheres of influence that are taking hold in that region of the world. Spheres of influence that have already been agreed upon by the major powers.
Several months ago I reported on an interesting finding I discovered through a contact at the State Department. The United States is building more than 70,000 toilets on a base in Tuzla. I have also confirmed this fact with a toilet manufacturer who is supplying the material. Now we only have 8,500 American troops on the ground in Tuzla and they are scheduled to be leaving in a few short months according to our new Secretary of Defense.
If I were a betting man I would bet that finally, for all of its effort and help in this Bosnian war, the Germans get the first wish. That wish is to finally get American troops off of German soil, and guess where the most likely spot in the world is going to be....do you need a hint? TUZLA and I guarantee you that we will find any pretext to get there, even if the CIA has to invent the reason. Even in the British press today it was suggested that our troops in Europe should be utilized in keeping peace in Bosnia...how convenient that the pieces just go together.
In 1993 I wrote a piece entitled the “Guantanamo of the Balkans.” It was about the 750 American troops we had and still have in Albania, an nation with whom we haven’t even taken the initiative to establish diplomatic relations. Why would we want to build a major military base in Albania you ask? A warm water port, (now that was behind the relationship Germany has had with Croatia for decades, that was also Hitler’s goal, their desire for the Adriatic). In addition, if you followed the Gulf War, our success would not have been possible if not for the bases we used in Turkey. But Turkey is becoming a question mark and militant. They now have a Muslim fundamentalists Prime Minister and the Arab world is seriously talking about an ARAB NATO! Would the United States like to face a potential angry Bear again and not have those Turkish bases? I doubt it.
Then we have Greece. Turkey invaded the Greek Island of Cyprus in 1974. That was real “aggression” for which not a single bomb was dropped, no sanctions were placed on Turkey for invading her neighbor. Senator Biden the most rabid Serbophobe in the Senate, sat on his hands over Greece and Cyprus since he was elected. He never called the Turks, “illiterate and degenerates. ” No Secretary of State called the Greeks “Murderous Assholes” as did Holbrooke of the Serbs. Biden just sat there for the past 23 years like an impotent castrated bull. But I believe that Greece is the next Balkan country to go the way of the Serbs, if Bulgaria or Albania dosen’t beat them to the punch. And 65 million Turks against 10 million Greeks, well...its just like the Serbs folks, 10 million against the world.
see part II
StSava - 09:23pm May 2, 1997 EST (#163 of 195)
Part II Now, in Bosnia, we have spent $9 billion dollars and this is only for starters, we're going to be spending $9 billion dollars on Bosnia every few years for the next several decades.
But why is this Serbian land worth all of this fuss. Well the Germans have coveted it now for a century and started two World Wars over it and have threatened on numerous occasions to dismember it and they did it this time without firing a single shot or loosing a single life. How unfortunate that we got sucked into their plot to destroy the Serbian people who beat the pants off of them twice in two wars. Serbia, for centuries has sat in the crossroad of the world, everything going north, south, east and west goes through Serbia. There is a very good reason that Serbia's neighbors spent billions of dollars in a joint effort to build a major lock system on the Danube River, nearly finished before the outbreak of this war...because these trading routes have been the envy of dictators and potentates for hundreds of years. That Danube River is the life blood of trading in that part of the world.
There is also a link, not just to oil and the strange bedfellows that black gold creates, Israel is also linked to Bosnia and a careful tracking of events during this war reveal a most interesting pattern. Every time things got really hot in Israel, the United States did something extra to punish the Serbs. I suggest that we were using Bosnia to show the Palestinian Muslim leaders how much we love Muslims.
We betrayed the brave fighting Serbs in WW II became we thought Tito was winning. He was a lying Bastard insisting that he had 125,000 men in his command when he had barely 50,000 at the time, but who was counting. During the cold war we needed Yugoslavia because it was at the frontier and on the borders of the Soviet Union and the poor dumb Serbian Bastards didn’t realize that Tito was planning to use them as cannon fodder in exchange for all of those billions of dollars the US was giving him and his Communist regime. Now that we no longer need the fighting spirit of the Serbian army we have treated these people like a scorned woman. We fornicated her for the last time and without even kissing her good night we kicked her out of bed.
Where does this lead, it leads right back to the money. President Eisenhower warned us about the Industrial Military Complex and it has us by the purse strings It also has our politicians by the balls. So many billions are being swept under the rug and into the pockets of politicians that war is profitable, regardless of how nicely we dress it up with phrases about freedom and democracy. Its good for the economy Stupid! We have spent nearly $10 billion dollars on Bosnia, a piece of land hardly the size of Rhode Island, do you see any peace, or freedom, or democracy there? Even if what they say is true about Karadzic and Mladic, and it is not, do you really believe that if we tried them and hanged them tomorrow that a single thing would change in Bosnia? These people despise each other with such a passion that its like making a cat and dog sleep in the same basket, or worse, like making a divorced couple share the same house. If we believed in pouring $10 billion dollars into Bosnia so that Croats, Slovenes and Bosnian Muslims could have independence then for God’s sake give 49% of Bosnia to the Serbs too and lets get on with life. Oh! but that would be rewarding aggression you say. In other words the Serbs, because a few of their leaders got greedy, as though our politicians are not, deserve to be punished forever? Or perhaps until every child born during this war is denied every human right until their death, then we allow these Serbs their pound of dignity? My God we didn’t do this to the tens of thousands of Germans who exterminated 40 million people yet we are willing to do this to Serbs for possibly killing 60,000 Muslims? We even rebuilt Germany for them, our enemy!
StSava - 10:56pm May 2, 1997 EST (#164 of 195)
I did not call your Turkish relatives “illiterates and degenerates” those were in quote marks, meaning that I was quoting the good Senator Biden who used such phrases to describe my people.
Why is it a “madhouse squabble” when I raise important facts in my postings but when information is presented by Croats or Muslims that has been clearly invented, my facts, dates, names, places have no bearing on people like you...you then change the subject and say that I am just simply too difficult to reach. Reach for what, you certainly do not appear willing to have a dialogue about the facts. When I present to you the miserable news proclivities like the AP posting you suggest that I contact William Safire, what to hell for, he is as Serbophobic as Anthony Lewis. When I sent Lewis color photographs of Serbian soldiers roasted like animals on a spit to challenge his remarks, he didn't have the courtesy to print a retraction, he didn't even respond to my letter.
It is quite clear by the AP report just how selective the media was during this war. I remember once when an entire Serbian village was destroyed along with about 170 victims. The man at the British foreign desk was asked by his flunkies in the field, should we go out and cover the story? The British editor said, “no, no one is interested in dead Serbs.” And that, my friend, is what news making is all about.
Our organization did protest these stories. I remember in 1992 the use of a photograph of a Serbian girl who was a rape victims. In eleven American newspapers not one single one got the story right, she was either a Muslim or a Croat victim, not one in eleven journalists correctly identified her as a Serb. And you wonder why I have such rage? Wake up man...you and your ethnic group may be the victim of the next politically correct war. It's the New World Order...wake up, its the season to abdicate your rights to the lunatics of the media!
The Serbian Patriarch said it right in 1991 when he led 100,000 people in a protest march through the streets of Belgrade: “Before this war the world's journalists didn't know the difference between Slovenia, Slovonia and Slovakia, today they are all Balkan experts.” A few months ago a news reporter asked the Congressman from Oregon to point on a map where Bosnia was located. He pointed to Africa. I rest my case!
aponine - 12:19am May 3, 1997 EST (#165 of 195)
StSava: I apologize for flying off the handle . re: Turks and Greeks. I went back and saw that I did read your post incorrectly. What with all the flying insults and my questionable eyesight I missed your meaning. So I've gone and deleted my post. It wasn't appropriate.
marko_k - 01:01am May 3, 1997 EST (#166 of 195)
Mr Baker says in message #156: [The Communist book] "was published in Cyrillic. Since I have always been interested in history, european in particular, I made it a point to collect books on the subject even if written in foreign languages. For my own interest, I had this book translated about 10 years ago by a Notary Public..."
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,... You want us to believe that you payed for a whole [Communist] book to be translated! And what was the cost of the translation!? Why did you ask for that particular Communist propaganda (about their ideological enemy - the Royalist Chetniks) to be translated to you? There were tons of books that Communists published! You want us to believe that you are a super-rich certified moron?... What else one can sell you? You are really a sad case of a liar.
Then you add: "how do you justify your reliance on these same "unrealiable communist sources" for the "truths" you are advocating? - when they serve your purpose that is. You cite world encyuclopedias as your sources - yet the information in them is from that same communist Yugoslav regime that you find so unreliable."
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,... Encyclopedia Britannica, Americana, Encyclopedia of Holocaust is now written by Communists!? I thought, as some-one on your Nazi-apologist side said - it was published by Royalists who did not want beautiful Ottoman empire to spread.
You think all those PhDs siting in the editorial boards of the various encyclopedias - are morons who just needed someone to translate Communist thoughts so that they can publish it in the reputable literature of that caliber?
Please, Mr Baker entertain us some more.
Could you be yet another personality of marmet/fedup/aponine/.../...?
May be all of us are discussing things with just one Nazi-loving person?
I never thought this forum would be such fun.
avoice - 02:34am May 3, 1997 EST (#167 of 195)
Well, Marko, if you're keen on discussing things with NAZI's for fun, I am sure a clever fellow like yourself could ferret some out. But I am pretty sure that aponine is not one.
doctor13 - 08:36am May 3, 1997 EST (#168 of 195)
StSava (posting #162) did not go far enough. Following are some excerpts from Yohanan Ramati's "The Cold War is Back" (June 1996), that helps to confirm StSava's findings and of further proof of Germany's culpability in fomenting the breakup of the former Yugoslavia. Mr. Ramati is the Chairman of the Jerusalem Institute for Western Defence in Israel.
"It is not yet appreciated that the Yugoslav civil war -- partly by accident and partly by design -- radically altered the relationships between the world's major powers Its effects extend far beyond Europe and are only now beginning to surface. One of them was the renewal of the Cold War. Both the Middle East and the Far East were affected."
"American policy during the Yugoslav civil war had three complementary diplomatic goals, all of which were attained, as well as a strategic goal likely to be attained soon. These three political goals were:
1. To stir up tensions within the European Community, weakening its fabric and delaying or preventing its emergence as a superpower capable of competing on equal terms with the U.S.
2. To create a deep rift between Germany and Russia, with the intention of preventing political cooperation between them in the near future.
3. To demonstrate to the world who is boss in Europe.
"The strategic goal is to turn Bosnia-Herzegovina into the main American military base in Europe and transfer the U.S. forces now stationed in Germany there. The confirmed contract (value $1.3 billion!) to build military barracks and latrines at Tuzla in the Moslem part of Bosnia is far too big to relate to the 20,000 American troops present in Bosnia and supposed to be evacuated from there in early 1997. Nor is it likely that so much American money is being invested to build barracks for German or other European forces. So the transfer of U.S. ground forces now stationed in German to Bosnia is by far the most reasonable assumption -- especially since Germany has been pressing for their evatuation, regarding them as an unwelcome reminder of its defeat and occupation in World War II."
Here I must say, that the cost of Bosnia to U.S. taxpayers will exceed 50 billions dollars! That sure could have build a lot of roads here in the United States instead of building roads for them in Bosnia!). (to be continued).
doctor13 - 08:40am May 3, 1997 EST (#169 of 195)
Continuation of Post #168
"Germany was the prime mover precipitating the Yugoslav civil war, but its goals were limited to bolstering its predominance within the European Community by the creation of satellite states traditionally allied with -- especially Catholic Croatia and Slovenia. This meant supporting Croatian and Slovenian independence, despite the Helsinki agreement to safeguard the territorial integrity of all European states including federal Yugoslavia, to which both Germany and the U.S. were signatories. It should be recalled that 11 of the 12 European Community states oppposed this move. Germany recognized Croatia and Slovenia unilaterally, forcing the others to do the same or risk problems with the Maastricht Treaty. Whether it would have done so without an assurance of U.S. support is a good question."
Twice in this century that produced two world wars, Germany tried to gain access to the Adriatic Sea. Twice in this century, they were prevented by Serbs. This time, in order to succeed, the Serbians had to be demonized, much in the same way Hitler had to demonize the Jews and blame them for all of Germany's problems in order for the German people to accept the horrors that were to follow. With U.S. military aid and technology, and the assistance of 15 retired U.S. Air Force mercenary generals who are willing to sell their expertise to anyone for a buck, Croatia achieved its "victory," thumping its chest like a 500-pound gorilla; a "victory" which it could never have achieved without the complicity of our government and Germany. The Croatian offensive is a good lesson of betrayal of an ally, the Serbian people, and to what extent we are willing to go, i.e., the destruction of their sovereign nation), to achieve our U.S. agenda; that of world domination.
avoice - 11:18am May 3, 1997 EST (#170 of 195)
That Germany is the perciptating force behind the breakup ot the Yugoslav Republic sounds good, but I think that you are giving the Western European powers --especially Germany-- far more credit for deviousness than they deserve. I just don't think that anyone in Europe was smart enought to figure out the future in advance, Further I don't see Croatia and Slovenia as natural allies of the Germans, any more than the Czechs and Poles. The view that there was a vast conspiracy against Serbia which caused the Bosnian war just doesn't hold water. You really have to be paranoid to hold these views, not that paranoids don't have real enemies too. It was a lot of individual choices by different groups all at odds with each other, and temporary alliances, that led to this. There was no one out there with a synoptic view of the whole scene. Everyone just wanted to get their's. And that includes the Serbians. It's not exactly as if the Serbians sat on their hands during the feeding frenzy.
doctor13 - 12:40pm May 3, 1997 EST (#171 of 195)
Once again, avoice becomes an apologist for the fascists.
I suggest he, and the other readers of this forum, read my post #20 on the Anthony Lewis discussion forum which immediately follows his post #19 describing the "great people of Croatia." Greatness to some is measured by how well Croats can exterminate a select group of people (Serbs, Jews and Gypsies), and not being condemned for their odious behavior. He comes to the conclusion that Croatia and Slovenia are not "natural allies" of the Germans. That is just his erroneous opinion anyway. I guess Croatia's obedience and adoration of Hitler in WWII is a lie also? Avoice remarks that he does not give credit "especially to Germans" for deviousness is the laugh of the century! Considering that we have had two world wars because of German expansionism and aggression, is not worth mentioning?
The following is worth repeating:
"You can understanad Croatia best by saying flatly that if there is one place in the world where a statue of Adolph Hitler would be revered, it would be in Zagreb." (Edward Pearce, "The Evening Standard, London, 7 Aug. 95).
Those words sum it all up. I wonder what comedy script writer is furnishing avoice with his material?
Considering avoice has spent most of his time attacking, accusing, and insulting StSava and doctor13 on these forums, avoice cries foul when he can't take the heat.
As for the Croats and their fascist mentality, if the shoe fits . . .
By the way, does avoice agree or disagree with A.M. Rosenthal's article exposing Croatia's fascism, past and present?
aponine - 01:23pm May 3, 1997 EST (#172 of 195)
doctor13 5/3/97 12:40pm I think Avoice was saying that Germany wasn't overseeing the events that took place in the Balkans after Yugoslavia broke up. I, too, look at Germany with a wary eye, but I don't think it is today what it once was.
aponine - 01:27pm May 3, 1997 EST (#173 of 195)
By the way, Doctor, if you didn't see the tongue-in-cheek humor of his "Great Croation" post then you really need a cure. I recommend a long cruise to the Bahamas.
StSava - 01:36pm May 3, 1997 EST (#174 of 195)
Mr. AVoice manages to omit any reference to these arguments that it was Germany that led the pack in recognizing Slovenia, then Croatia. The Vatican was the first to recognize Croatia. Then he also omits any reference that it was Germany that gave Croatia tanks from East German stock. That it supplied not only the moral support but financial support for the campaigns waged against the Serbs.
And why, Mr. Avoice, do you completely ignore the real truth, that the Croatians of all the participating antagonists have achieved the only ethnically pure state of the lot, A Greater Croatia? They have successfully removed the 12% population of Serbs, approx. 630,000 Serbs, from their territory and have destroyed nearly 60,000 Serbian homes including WWII memorials along with 97 Serbian Orthodox Churches. There were 500 Serbian churches in Croatia before WWII, now there are only 62 and I'll bet you don't call that genocide either!
Apparently AVoice, you have some Chutzpah is you selective recall of this war. I'll bet you didn't lose any sleep as more than a thousand elderly Serbs had their throats slit in the year following the Croatian offensive in the Krajina, making sure that even those who are near the end of their lives are not around to remind them of their Nazi past.
How amazing it is to read the newspapers and see their accounts when the Serbs stone bus loads of Muslims who violate the rule by appearing in Brcko un announced, but its perfectible acceptable that no Serbs will ever be allowed to return to Croatia or the Krajina where their ancestors have lived since the 15th century, invited to these lands by the Austrian Monarchy and granted land rights and religious rights to defend Austria against the marauding Turks. This was at a time when the Croats were vassals to these Austrians.
I see right through AVoice you could care less about facts, laws, equal right and legal parity, screw them all, Serbs don't deserve any of it, after all we are just mere aggressors! The ills that plague Europe, the root of fascism, the unsolvable solution. It is quite easy to read between your lines, AVoice, you actually advocate lining all Serbs up against the wall and shooting the entire lot, all 10 million of us. too bad that you don't have the courage nor the balls to just say it.
And by the way, you still manage to avoid answering my question. How long do the Serbs deserve to be demonized and starved to death, 10 years, 20 years, or until the children born during this war die a natural death, a death through starvation or just simple neglect? You and others continue to ignore this question. It's an important one, the Serbian people need to know how long to plan for their pariah status, a lifetime, or Madelene Albright's lifetime?
sofija - 01:44pm May 3, 1997 EST (#175 of 195)
I am somewhat amazed that Serbs can't figure out that AVOICE and APONINE are a quantum leap away from the Serbophobia of Lewis, Albright, Biden, etc. AVOICE and APONINE are somewhat like George Kenney who realized his earlier one-sided anti-Serb position was influenced by PR and now takes a balanced position. I don't believe that these two forum contributors are secret Croat or Muslim sympathizers. I actually believe that they are interested in the truth and they have made it clear, particularly AVOICE, that many of the Serb arguments have merit. I am somewhat gratified that these two haven't yet simply given up because some of the unnecessary invective that has been heaped upon them. Serb paranoia may have foundations in real events but it still doesn't help the Serb position when that paranoia seeps into every discussion. I lost plenty of family in the Krajina and in NW Bosnia over the last 4 years and if I listened only to my gut reactions then I wouldn't be able to discuss anything.
By the way, my handle has changed from KOSOVO to SOFIJA because I couldn't remember my password for posts. So please don't see a plot in this too.
Steven Majstorovic Duquesne University
StSava - 02:24pm May 3, 1997 EST (#176 of 195)
Thank you Sofija!
This is one Serb that does not suffer from paranoia, I suffer from chronic rage! Rage that someone like Warren Christopher managed to demonize and insult my people for “a lack of morals” when it was his nephew who was arrested for breaking and entering the Forrest Lawn Mortuary in Los Angeles about a years ago and was caught having sex with a corpse! (Metro Section, Page 8, LA Times, San Fernando Vally, September 21, 1995). Warren Christopher had incredible Chutzpah, too! By the way, there are no laws in California for having sex with the dead, is this a family proclivity?
Speaking of the dead, Do you remember the newspaper accounts of the Serbs digging up their dead as they fled Sarajevo before it was turned over to the Muslims? The Serbs were portrayed as some kind of beasts for these acts, Kris Janowski, spokesman for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees said, “We cannot assist in the transportation of bodies. We will not assist people in their bizarre rituals.”
Little know to the American taxpayers is the fact that the Chairman of the Joints Chiefs, Gen. John Shalikashvili visited the land of his father and asked Georgian leader Eduard Shevardnadze if he could re bury his Nazi father in the Caucasus Mountains, (AP May 24, 1995) along side the other Nazis. He transported that body on an American military aircraft. His father was a member of the brutal Waffen SS who emigrated to the United States in 1946 where he later became an American citizen. Apparently when you reach the height of American respectability such rituals are no longer consider “bizarre!”
This insulting double standard was further demoralizing as George Stephanopoulos remained silent. As an Orthodox Christian whose father and grandfather are Eastern Orthodox priests he protected his job instead of his morals, but it was Stephanopoulos who immediately came to the defense of Barney Frank when Frank's homosexuality made the press.
American officials may call our respect for the dead “bizarre,” we Eastern Orthodox Christians call it love.