StSava - 06:55pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#118 of 144)

No Fedup (#104) I don't for a moment support what the English have done in Northern Ireland, I was agreeing with the good doctor at Duquesne University. And, my oh my how quick you are to target me as an anti-Catholic fanatic....well, dear Mr. fedup, half of my cousins are Roman Catholic as my father's brother married a Croatian. Suggesting that I drag my “saintly ass back to Greater Serbia,” I was born in the United State you moron! Where was your saintly ass propelled from, Mars? How far back in American history can you chart your relatives? It is your kind of insanity that leads to wars...your go back where you came from mentality. My relatives fought two World Wars, Korea, and Vietnam and several received the purple heart. What is on your lapel, other than your sloppy remnants of breakfast?

I remind you that the first Serbian Orthodox church built in the United States was built in Jackson, California, in 1894 which was 103 years ago. I can trace my roots in America, can you account for yours?

But if you truly believe in your statement that “if I supported England I would be a hypocrite,” then why are the Serbs getting the same shaft as the Irish Catholics and you manage to look away?

As for aponine (#106) you, too, are quick to paint me with the Tim McVeigh brush. I don't hate all Catholics any more than I hate all Muslims or Arabs, I just hate those who commit criminal acts and murder against Eastern Orthodox Christians and get away with it.

Wm. Dorich

walterbk - 07:09pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#119 of 144)

Dear Mr. Marakov:

As cleverly as you seem able to manipulate historical "truths", so have you done with my posting. If you will refer to my posting regarding Malaparte's book, you will see that I did not in fact make reference to "my own local library misplacing the book". Kaputt IS acknowledged as a work of fiction, and by an author of dubious character I might add. While it may be written in a memoire form, virtually all sources (except Serbian sources) regard the work as fictitious. Promoting the book as an authoritative reflection of the day is the same as promoting "Gone With the Wind" as a historical account of the American Civil War, or that Moses actually looked like Charleton Heston.

For someone who provides selective works, albeit rarely, as reference for what you're saying, I am not surprised that you want references for what I am writing. Perhaps if you passed over the "Serbian Propaganda" section of your local library and actually read a little more extensively, you would be familiar with my references.

As for your assertions about the real origins of my name -let me make it easy on you - my name is Baker (B-A-K-E-R) and not what ever the Hell you wrote. My family emigrated to the United States from England over 100 years ago. Why is it so difficult for you to accept that someone, with no connection to the former Yugoslavia, can actually disagree with what your pettling on unsuspecting readers?

aponine - 07:29pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#120 of 144)

Okay--let me attempt a tone of congeniality here. I have a couple of questions, and if you promise not to come at me with hyperventilating sentences then I promise to try to comprehend your view.

1. Why should Bosnia-Herzevgovina not have been created?

2. Why is it that American activists, Jewish and otherwise, have sympathized with the Bosnian Muslims and Croats?

3. How could it possibly be in America's interest (other than for humanitarian concerns) to take sides against the Serbs? As far as I know we have had no antagonistic history with Serbia--so what is our motive and gain?

avoice - 07:29pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#121 of 144)

Not all Serbians share Mr. Dorich's enthusiasm for alienating people. who might otherwise be supportive. I managed to find a letter addressed to a Serbian organization--SIEM-on the internet from a person--a Mr. Michael Pravica-- who apparently knows Mr. Dorich well enough to speak with him on the phone, in which he mentions in passing that Mr. Dorich may be speaking "a bit" too harshly. The letter is on the Anthony Lewis forum adjacent to this one, and it may be of some interest to those of you who have crossed swords here of late. It might just give an alternative spin on the Serbians.

marko_k - 11:00pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#122 of 144)

Mr. Makarov,

Of course you will get no reference from Mr. Baker on any of his propaganda claims (Malaparte's work is fiction, only 5% of Croats supported Ustashe, Sanjak was a part of Bosnia, Muslims joined SS en mass to defend themselves from Chetniks, etc., etc.)

When faced with facts fedup/aponine/baker gang can do nothing but show their culture in calling you names:

- Paranoic, hysterical Hysterio - fedup (#110)

- Intemperate provocateur with borderline sanity - avoice (#113)

- Tormented wounded beast from some medieval hell hole - fedup (# 114)

But what else can they do? One can only pitty those who get task to defend Croatian fascists or Islam fundamentalist Muslims of Bosnia.

Their helplessness just proves that you are doing a good work. Do not worry many Americans are reading the facts pointed to by your links. They know that major media lies about most things they mention. To lie has become their job description.

Give us facts do not waste time on ustashe apologizers.

Marko K.

walterbk - 12:33am May 1, 1997 EST (#123 of 144)

Dear Mr. Makarov and Marko K.

First of all, I would like to apologize to Mr Makarov for spelling you're name incorrectly in my previous posting. I do not like to play games with people's names as apparantly you do. But that is beside the point.

It was not my intention to get drawn into a prolonged debate, but I would be happy to call Marko's challenge and provide you with one of my references - The Chetnik Movement of Draza Mihailovich - published in Belgrade in 1979.

In addition to documentation outlining the actions of the Chetnik movement during WWII, including the massacres of Muslim civilians in the Sandzak region (however you want to describe its territorial boundaries), the book includes a copy of the Chetnik Memorandum of 1941 which defines the essence of the Chetnik movement and how their goals are to be achieved.

Starting on page 45 (of the 422-page book) you will find the following information:

"Goals of our (i.e. Chetnik) organization are:

1. Battle for freedom for our nation in its entirety under the leadership of His Excellency Peter II.

2. To create a Greater Yugoslavia and in it a Greater Serbia, ethnically pure, within the borders of Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Srem, Banat and Bachke.

3. Battle to include in our territories all those unliberated territories held by the Italians (Triest, Gotica, Istria and Korusha) as well as those held by Bulgaria and northern Albania with Skradom.

4. The cleansing of our country's territories of all national minorities and non-national elements.

5. The creation of continuous and shared borders between Serbia and Montenegro, as well as between Serbia and Slovenia, through the cleansing of Sandzak of all muslims, and Bosnia of all muslim and croatian life.

6. The punishment of all ustashe and muslims who have in our tragic days, without mercy, killed our people.

7. The punishment of all those who are responsible for our April catastrophe.

8. In the territories that are cleansed of all national and non-national elements, carry out the immigration of Mentenegrans. (Most likely poor nationally-correct families).

9. The creation of one such political body that will lead the country in line with naitonal interests.

10. The goals are monumental, that is why the battle is all the more satisfying for those who fight for their achievement."

------------------------------------------------------------------

Many readers who are non-Serbs may not understand all the territories listed in this Chetnik Memorandum, but if they have done any reading or follwed the war in Croatia or Bosnia in any way, they will be familiar with some of the concepts outlined (the cleansing of conquered territories of all non-Serbs, the creation of a Greater Serbia, the movement of "acceptable" immigrants into newly conquered territories).

While the Memorandum was written in 1941 by the command of the Chetnik Movement, it is undeniable that its principles, and those of an earlier similar document written in the late 1800s (though not by the Chetnik Movement), where very much involved in guiding Belgrade's agenda for war in the former Yugoslavia.

The Ustashe committed terrible crimes during WWII. That is undeniable. But so too did the Serbs - during WWII when they were the first in Europe to proclaim Belgrade to be "judenfrei" (free of Jews),and during this current war in the former Yugoslavia.

doctor13 - 12:33am May 1, 1997 EST (#124 of 144)

Mr. Baker,

You wrote, "Everything I have read on the subject has led me to believe that the Ustasha movement did not have the support of the Croatian people, in fact, it was never more than 5% of the population.." Merely because this is your conclusion, it doesn't mean I have to buy it. Even if your figure of 5% were to be true, and I believe it is not, it becomes even more bizarre, more repugnant, and even more disgraceful, considering that that 5% who committed the atrocities were committed by the Roman Catholic clergy and their Muslim ally against the Serbs, Jews and Gypsies. And as a reward for their brutality, the Vatican schemed up its infamous Ratline to make sure these butchers were not brought to justice.

We have been accused of being anti-Catholic and anti-Muslim because we attempt to bring the truth to the American people. If the American people had been told the truth from the beginning of the Bosnian civil war instead of being lied to by our media, our politicians, and that Commander-in-Thief, who is now in the process of giving away our country to communist China, perhaps all this bloodshed could have been avoided. But too many on this forum prefer we remain silent so as not to offend those who defend the butchers.

A.M. Rosenthal certainly hit the nail on the head with his article that we are discussing on fhis forum. The same fascist mentality that Croatians had in World War II, exists today.

You say that the Kaputt article has been classified in all libraries as a work of fiction. However, it is not fiction that eyes were gouged out, including the cutting off of noses and ears, just "to give a little variety," by the Catholic clergy who ran the death camps in World War II. "The Italians photographed an Ustashi (Croatian or Muslim soldier) wearing two chains of human tongues and eyes around his neck." (Jean-Marc Sabatier in "Paris-Match," May 25, 1957). "One would have to go to Asia at the time of Tamerlan or Genghis-Khan or to Africa to the countries of their bloodthirsty rulers to come upon similar situations." (Croatian politican to Archbishop Stepinac, Feb 8, 1942). There is no point in rehashing the barbarism committed by the Roman Catholic clergy and their Bosnian Muslim friends. The skeptics on this forum prefer to believe that the barbarism never took place or that we are just making it up.

doctor13 - 12:40am May 1, 1997 EST (#125 of 144)

For those of you who are new to the forum, you will be interested in the following:

If you scroll down past A.M. Rosenthal, you will see a forum entitled "About Our Hosts." One lists a discussion forum by Richard Haass under International Affairs. You will then see "Archived Discussions," and once you click that on, you will get to "Bosnia Archive."

On that forum, you will see what was posted before that discussion forum was terminated.

Iloveyuanxue - 12:48am May 1, 1997 EST (#126 of 144)

Lee, CM Martin will be seen as another Wang Jiangwen in the eyes of Chinese, not necessarily only Chinese from mainland.

My old neighbor in Queens is cursing him every day because he is from HK and his two children and their family are in HK. This person is 75 years old and an old veteran of the Chinese civil War on the side of KMT. He is concerned this stooge is going to make HK unstable, thus make his children and grandchildren life difficult in HK.

Mr.Wang Jiangwen was a radical revolutionary of the Republican Movement at the beginning of this century, but ended up a traitor to China, who collaborated with Japanese invaders.

Pitifully, Mr.Lee will piss off most HKer. His party has to raise fund from overseas. He will probably have to end up in his foreign sugar-daddy's cold basement someday.

Most Chinese living in HK have been politically passive. The British occupying power never bother to listen to their opinions except intelligent agents, who are known to have infiltrated in labor organization throughout its rule to thwart any challange to its rule. Living under a foreign power, HKer are more concerned about Chinese politics than British colonial politics because that is where they got an outlet. They never have any high hope their opinion will matter to the Colonial adm. In deed, the colony have been ruled by fiat for a long time.

How many percentage of the Chinese population voted as compared to the expats in the last election, which supposedly for the first time, HKer had choice for who should govern their life. I know for a fact the rate is so different it makes trenmendous difference for the final result. The more traditional Chinese one get, the less likely he is going to vote because he knows his vote wont worth as much as colonial govenor's warm fart according to his experience.

The survey done by Asia Society recently reveal the vote was not representative.

Iloveyuanxue - 12:49am May 1, 1997 EST (#127 of 144)

There is censorship barring by message to the China forums here. So, the previous message will be with you guys for a while.

pravica - 01:20am May 1, 1997 EST (#128 of 144)

Dear Mr. Rosenthal, As a Serbian-American who lost some 68 relatives in the unprecedented reign of terror and slaughter that was unleashed by Hitler's Nazi-puppets, the Croatian Ustashe, during WWII, I would like to thank you for demonstrating true moral compassion for these victims who no longer have any voice except for those of us - the living - who will never let the memory of the injustices committed against them die.

Sincerely, Michael Pravica Vice President The Serbian-American Alliance of New England (SANE), Inc.

walterbk - 01:23am May 1, 1997 EST (#129 of 144)

Dear doctor13:

I have not denied that the Ustashe regime committed terrible crimes during WWII, but they were not the only ones. They were not the onlyt ones who wore severed noses, tongues and ears around their necks - so did Serbian Chetniks, whether you want to admit that or not.

The Ustashe and Chetnik movements are more similar than you may want to believe, with one notable exception - the Chetnik movement and the collaborationist government of Gen. Nedic had more support among the Serb populace than the Ustashe movement had among Croats.

Just before and during WWII, a fascist party in Canada received more popular support from Canadians (particulary in Quebec) than the Ustashe received in Croatia. Would you say then that Canada and Canadians have a fascist tendency? Probably not. While Tudjman's government is clearly not a developed democratic government, neither is it a fascist regime.

I have no problems with perpetrators of war crimes, whoever they are, being held accountable for their actions. They should be - every last one of them and regardless of how much time has passed. But I cannot accept the concept of collective guilt. All Canadians cannot be labelled guilty of supporting fascism, just as all Croatians or Muslims today cannot be labelled guilty of supporting Ustashe actions.

The difficulty I have with what you are advocating, is that I can see no validity in justifying todays Serbian military agression in Bosnia and Craotia with what they believe happened 50 years ago.

Someone who believes that they are victim, does not have the right to become a victimizer in turn.

pravica - 02:00am May 1, 1997 EST (#130 of 144)

As far as any attempts to equate the respective WWII roles and activities of the "Independent State of Croatia" and Serbia using today's classic Croatian-govt. inspired historical revisionism, the following facts cannot be denied:

1. Serbia's Orthodox Christian Patriarch was the only major religious leader ever interned in a Nazi concentration camp - Dachau. This action certainly did not endear the people of Serbia to the Nazis.

2. Serbia was under Nazi-occupation and therefore all major decisions of State were made by the occupying Nazis. It was S.S. Gruppenfuhrer Harold Turner - not any Serb - who proclaimed and made Serbia "juden-frei." In fact, most of Serbia's Jews perished in Croatian concentration camps - being trucked across the Sava river into Zemun which was occupied by the Independent State of Croatia. The Jews who survived were often saved by Serbian families -at great personal risk- and often joined the Partisans which were always majority-dominated by Serbs. Croatia, on the other hand, was a Nazi-satellite and was able to create its own concentration camps to exterminate Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies in its Nazi-allowed borders (i.e. not under Nazi supervision) which no other axis state was ever allowed to do. In other words, Croatia's concentration camps were home-grown - set up independently of Hitler's wishes. Even the Nazis were appalled at the sheer barbarism of the crimes committed against the Serbian population by the Croatian Ustashe and in some cases, wrested control of some communities from the Ustashe to prevent them from massacring more Serbs and thereby driving more Serbian survivors to take arms against all occupiers.

3. Let us remember that it was the Serbs who tore up the tri-partite pact with Hitler - choosing national suicide - and so incensed Hitler that he threw immense military resources to punish the Serbs - bombing Belgrade - resulting in the deaths of some 20,000 Serbian civlians. So many resources were diverted to the Balkans that operation "Barbarosa" - the attempted military conquest of Russia - was delayed by three weeks possibly destroying any chance Hitler ever had of defeating the Soviet Union.

4. The Nazi occupation of Serbia was so barbaric that the Germans instituted the rule that for ever Nazi soldier killed, one hundred Serbians would be slaughtered. As a result, the city of Kragujevac lost over 14,000 innocent civlians in a matter of days - including some 500 Serbian schoolchildren who were used as target practise. And people are trying to claim that the Serbians welcomed Hitler to rape, pillage, and terrorize their lands??

The historical injustices committed against Serbia in four wars this century are so great that only Almighty God would have any chance of correcting them.

StSava - 02:35am May 1, 1997 EST (#131 of 144)

Avoice, Re: #21 in the Anthony Lewis section.

Boy are you stretching to make a point. Is this the best you can do to discredit me?

Michael Pravica, his father and I have had numerous conversations over the years. In some, we totally agree with each other and in other we may argue a fine point or a particular approach to a current problem. I have had similar conversations with dozens of Serbs around the world for several years when I seek their advice, but I do not recall this particular conversation nor have I ever created, written or produced a “brochure” in the past 5 years which contained some antagonistic phrases against the Jews.

In fact, I have enjoyed a rather outstanding relationship with the Jewish community. This very evening I was the guest speaker for Rabbi Sherwood and his Interfaith Counsel in the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles. I consider Herb Brin a personal friend and my material has been reproduced on numerous occasions in his newspaper, Southwest Jewish Press, hardly something Jews would do if I was antagonistic against them. If you have read my published material and my books over the past 5 years I would challenge you to seek out those passages in which I have attacked the Jewish community, short of that, shove your self serving investigative work! You are no Sherlock Holmes!

William Dorich

macian - 02:45am May 1, 1997 EST (#132 of 144)

Mr Rosenthal,

As a long time friend of Frank Cox (the NYT treasurer) before he died, objecting as he did about his paper's editorial policies, and as the father of Anne Pollard, who served 3 1/2 years of unbelievable hell in U.S. prisons for her role as the Israel spy's wife, and as the unseen author of countless New York Times stories I fed your journalists as a vice president of Hill & Knowlton, I have always been intrigued by your paper's selective viewpoint on "news." No less today, after Jonathan Pollard's accusations against specific Israelis for their abondoning of him, which was front page in Israel. After seeing my daughter imprisoned in the U.S., and tortured beyond belief, reduced to a living skeleton for the "crime" of helping him after he committed his espionage (I have learned that no other person in the history of the United States was ever thrown in prison and tortured for this so-called crime), I turned to the Jewish community for help. What did I see? A William Safire so scared out of his pants, and without knowing a thing about the case, immediately writing editorials to disassociate his "good" Jewishness from the evil of the bad Jews. (Believe me the same thing happened with Dreyfus). I saw Edward Koch, the mayor, immediately getting his editorial published in the New York Times, explaining he was a good Jew, and the Pollards ought to be hung out and dried. But equally as bad, I saw you write columns over the years professing to be a good Jew, but temporing that with your criticism of the 'extreme' Jews in Israel. To me you are no more than the good Jews of France who condemned Dreyfus. You are Jewish, but not to the point you would approve of the perceived, but perhaps not real, actions of the State of Israel. You somehow must explain what a good American you are, and you somehow will approve of an American prisoner such as my daughter being tortured in a US prison. Well I don't understand that. Likewise in the Times selective reporting of the news (long ago I learned it was never all the news fit to print, but rather all the news that fits the print), I can't understand how you can continue to ignore front page news in Israel. Don't you understand that news has become nothing you can any longer control, that the internet gives us news from everywhere? And if you simply don't like the news, you can no longer hide it? Furthermore I learned somewhat bitterly that so-called friends of Israel aren't really friends, as most Israelis have also bitterly learned, and that often these so-called friends are the worst sort of friends anyone could have. Why don't you try to understand their viewpoint sometime, and allow The New York Times to carry stories the people of Israel think are important, instead of the crap you try to impose on them? Very truly yours, Bernard R. Henderson, 33 Bank Street, NY, NY 10014. Tel 212.691.0402. E-mail: macian@mail.idt.net.

StSava - 03:59am May 1, 1997 EST (#133 of 144)

Walterbk #129 claims that he did not intend to get involved in this discussion but like a lunatic he yells fire in a crowded theatre, then runs.

Claiming that the Ustashe and the Chetniks were “more similar than you may want to believe” is the kind of remark that only a moron would make! Nuremberg documents claim that 1.7 million Serbs were killed in WWII, nearly 700,000 of whom were killed by their Ustashe neighbors. The records of WWII reveal that the Serb Partisans ( Loyal to Communist Tito) killed most of the 87,000 Croats after the end of the war in revenge killings that the Chetniks had nothing to do with. It is pretty obvious by these statistics who was doing the better job of murder. In total, 744 Serbian Orthodox priest and 4 of their bishops were murdered. Only 26 Roman Catholic priest were killed by comparison while 1,500 Roman Catholic priests fled the country for Argentina with false passports. I can't imagine why? I suggest that you review some of the old movie footage which showed the Germans entering Zagreb where the overwhelming throngs waved Nazi flags...obviously that little 5% of the Nazi Croat population did a damn good job of conversion and flag making.

As for Nedic, he was a respected Serbian General who was approached by the Germans, after their invasion of Yugoslavia in April, 1941, asking him to administer the remnants of the Serbian government. Nedic refused. By June, a document was signed by Nedic when the Germans threatened to bring in the Bulgarian Fascists to oversee the Serbian government. However, Nedic signed the document with one stipulation that you cleverly omit in your reference, “that none of his guards would be used in the war and would remain home guards.” And they were not! As for Yugoslavia making the statement that is was free of the Jews, that remark was made after the invasion of the German army. There were 28 Rabbi killed in Yugoslavia during the war, not one of them was killed by a Serb! These Serbs were occupied, this is like holding a prisoner responsible for confessions that were coerced out of him.

Calling the Serbs “collaborationist” after the Germans bombed Belgrade on Palm Sunday in April, 1941, killing 17,000 Serbs in one day and after the invading German army destroyed the Serbian army 10 days later, means that the Serbs were prisoners of war or were they “collaborationists” until they were shot in the back of the head?

The Germans executed 100 Serbs for every German soldier that was killed during the war. They killed 500 Serbs for every officer. In many recorded instances during this period, entire Serbian villages were murdered. You may call that collaboration, but it is only self serving to people like you who probably never lost any family members or relatives in that war.

All historical documents reveal that the Germans had a death camp called Banjica, a Gestapo prison in Belgrade in which Serbs were dragged off of the street and murdered every time a German was killed. Serbian nationalist fighters were taken to Banjica for interrogation...everyone one of them was executed, no doubt a reward for their “collaboration.”

Wm. Dorich