William Dorich - 12:43pm Apr 29, 1997 EST (#101 of 104)
MONEY THE CURE-ALL pribichevich (#93) implies that the dismemberment of Yugoslavia was because of a poor economy or that inflation drove these people to killing each other, that is so far off the mark that I am compelled to respond.
In 1990, before there was even a hint of a 5th war in the Balkans in this century (1912, 1913, 1918, 1941, 1991), Senator Robert Dole buried just 23 lines in Foreign Appropriations Bill 101-513 that denied further foreign aid to Yugoslavia when that nation was $31 billion in debt. (Nearly three times its GNP). To further expose the insane manner in which this potential president was willing to stoop, included in this legislation was also buried several lines that approved giving the individual Republics within Yugoslavia separate funding as long as these “republics” sought “free elections within six months.” This was a deliberate provication in violation of the sovereignty of that 72 year-old founding member of the United Nation and it encouraged first Slovenia, then Croatia, then finally Bosnia to seek independence from former Yugoslavia knowing full well that Uncle Sam would foot the bill.
During the war, the inflation drove people to despair and frightened them into believing that they would be made penniless and dependent on their adversaries, this drove this nation to madness. At one point in the war, in 1993, I was given a 500 Billion Dinar note, it was worth 10 cents the week it was printed, by the time it reached me three weeks later it was not worth the paper it was printed on. No American can ever imagine being put in a position in which your dollar, worth lets say two to one today against lets say Britain, being reduced in value by a thousand times, then 5,000 times, or worse a billion times, but that is what happened to the Serbs. You could not buy a loaf of bread for less than $500 billion dinar when the average income during this war was less than about a 1,000 dinar.
Senator Dole was demonic in his quest to destroy a nation, and he did, and millions of innocent people suffered the consequences of his madness. May he burn in hell for the misery that he unleashed on 10 million Serbian people.
But who supported Tito and his madness but Senators like Robert Dole and the pack of thieves in Congress who were the drug pushers who gave Tito a regular fix every time he wanted a billion here and a billion there. We supported this tyrant, this demagogue, this Communist. Even our Secretary of State, Lawrence Eagleburger left the Bush administration to become a member of the board of Tito's Communist Bank where he earned millions. He also became a board member of Yugo Cars. This arrogant Bastard willingly took Milosevich's money and stuffed his own pockets until there was nothing left to take, then he turned on those who fed him.
Tito led the American government around as though we had a ring in our nose because we believed that Yugoslavia was in the most important spot on the globe to be the first wave of resistance to Soviet ambitions...little did the Serbs realize that they were being planned for cannon fodder should such an occurrence ever come to pass. Once the Soviet Union disintegrated we dumped the Serbs, allies in two World Wars, liked a scorned woman.
William Dorich - 01:04pm Apr 29, 1997 EST (#102 of 104)
As an aside, I defended the Serbian people as president of SAVA, the Serbian American Voters Alliance since the beginning of this war. I wrote articles and made speeches when Serbs were being muzzled by the national press. I did not do this for personal reasons I did it because I was outraged that this is what freedom has come to represent. I never dreamed that the Serbian Patriarch and the Counsel of Bishops would honor me with the Order of St. Sava, an award that is rarely given by the church. I am unworthy!
However, I will wear this medal in the future, not for myself, but for the 1.2 million Serbian refugees who have been driven from their ancestral land and to the 44,000 Serb (7,000 of whom were children) who paid the ultimate price for their right to exist by giving their lives to defend their families and their homes. They were denied a voice by this so called free nation of America, they were betrayed in having any rights in a country in which they were born. It is their voice that I championed and I will continue to fight for legal parity in Bosnia, parity that includes equal rights for the Serbian people.
Stan Pribichevich - 02:17pm Apr 29, 1997 EST (#103 of 104)
Mr Dorich's (#102) post -eventhough un-intended-affirms the MONEY CURE-ALL theory. The issue of Dole/101-513 was in 1990-AFTER THE COUNTRY WAS ALREADY $31 BILLION IN DEBT. The inflation that drove the nation into despair and madness began years earlier after Tito's death- while the West just stood by and watched. You give a nobody like Dole too much credit in this mess. The blame should be shared by all Western nations-particularly Germany and the US. And, just curious.....why was there- as you say- no "hint" of a 5th war in the Balkans- for almost 50 years?
fedup - 04:33pm Apr 29, 1997 EST (#104
St Sava #81: Do I understand you correctly that you have some criticism about IRA activities in England? There may be alot to criticize about their terroristic tactics, but I HOPE you don't support the English in their occupation of N Ireland. If you do, Sir, then everything you've said in defense of your own countrymen is pure hypocrisy. And if America is such a bane to your existence then why don't you drag your saintly ass back home to Greater Serbia?
avoice - 08:40pm Apr 29, 1997 EST (#105
Looks to me like Mr. Dorich got your Irish up a bit, aponine.
aponine - 10:45pm Apr 29, 1997 EST (#106
avoice 4/29/97 8:40pm Oh yes he has. This man carries a bias against all Catholic countries that is as one-dimensional and loony-tunes as Tim McVeigh and his ilk.
walterbk - 01:13am Apr 30, 1997 EST (#107
How many members are in your SAVA organization?
walterbk - 02:22am Apr 30, 1997 EST (#108
Having taken the time to actually go through some of these postings, I am amazed at the number of balkan "experts". I certainly do not profess to be one, but I feel that some "truths" posted here should be explored.
Doctor13 - While you've obviously taken great pains to present excerpts from Curzio Malaparte's book (Kaputt), which by the way I have read, you fail to mention that it is a work of fiction. It is classified in all libraries as a work of fiction and was written as such.
PMarakov - your posting (#96) goes into detail about "facts" that you charge NYT "forgot" to tell. But it seems that you too are guilty of a selective memory. For instance, you write that the NYT forgot to tell people that Bosnian Muslims volunteered en mass in Nazi SS units. But you forget to tell us that this was precipitated by the wide-spread massacres and killings of muslims in the Sandjak region by Serbin Chetnik units.
And while there are other inconsistencies, inuendos and "forgots" that I could get into in some of these postings, I suppose that at this point some readers of Serbian origin are thinking of a few choice words to call me. So let me say this before you accuse me of being anti-Serb - I think that what happened to Serbs and Jews during WWII on the territory of the former Yugoslavia was terrible. Clearly, they suffered unspeakably under the Ustasha regime. But everything I have read on the subject has led me to believe that the Ustasha movement did not have the majority support of the Croatian people, in fact, it was never more than 5% of the population. At the time, the Croatian Peasant Party, under the leadership of Machek, had overwhleming popular support, even among some Serbs. It seems that the only reason Pavelich and his Italy-trained and supoprted Ustashe came to power was because Machek flatly and repeatedly refused to collaborate with Hitler and the Nazi regime. He and the Croatian Peasant Party clearly represented the majority of Croats.
Now I know that I'm probably going to regret this post given the tone of this discussion, but I do believe that half-truths and fictitious works should not be passed off as historical facts on unsuspecting readers.
Sincerely - Walter Baker
Petar Makara - 02:14pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#109
Mr. (Mrs?) "Aponine" admits in message #100: "I'm not an expert on the Balkans, ..."
Great! So what is your motive in participating on a Serb-satanizing NYT forum? 1) You are a masochist and you love to make a fool of yourselves publically 2) You just love to be a part of (any) lynch mob. (Plus, you can do that by hiding behind an anonymous id , like "Aponine" ).
Who do you think cares about your opinion based on ignorance (or worse: based on NYT racist, Nazi-like propaganda against one whole people - the Serbs)?
You say that I am "referring to various royals who had ambitions of holding back the Ottoman empire from Europe." How illustrative of the dark depth of your ignorance! Encyclopedia Britannica, Americana, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust as well as most of the post WWII books that I refered to - were printed in the U.S.A. Since wher is the U.S.A. a kingdom and why should Ottoman Empire have a right to spread through Europe?
Do something more useful than advertising your ignorance. Go chase Hale-Bopp.
Petar Makara (Makarov)
PS: An answer to newly arrived "expert", Mr. Baker, to follow. That guy is full of hot (royal) air also.
fedup - 02:39pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#110 of 144)
Hey Petar the Paranoid:
If I'm not well-versed in your propaganda it hardly means that I am ignorant about the situation. I merely asked your source. And if I'm making a fool of myself then I am one among many (at least I'm not hysterical). And as far as the Ottoman Empire is concerned, Hysterio, I wasnn't defending it's occupation in Europe. However, much of European history has been written these last couple of hundred years with the Ottomans in the back of Europe's collective mind. Those who record history are oftimes not unbiased as you yourself demonstrate.
p_makarov - 03:48pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#111 of 144)
Mr. Walter Baker says in message #108: "I certainly do not profess to be one [of the Balkan "experts" of this forum]." (I guess he would be one without quotation parenthesis on the word "expert". He is the real thing.)
Then he goes on in trying to sell us a blunt Nazi-apologizing propaganda - as his expertise.
He says that Curzio Malaparte's book (Kaputt) is a fiction (i.e. in his local library it was misplaced and put on the shelf with "fiction" literature)! The book was actually Mr. Malaparte's memoirs. In it he named names, dates and places that he witnessed himself. The claim that Mr. Malaparte's memoirs were a fiction is typical only of ustashe apologizers. Only Ustashe and their offsprings would claim that. And nobody else. (Which of the two are you Mr. "Baker"? What was your original, Croatian last name - Pekaric?)
That Ustashe loved gourging Serbian (and Jewish) eyes is simply the fact witnessed by many Ustashe allies (and enemies) of the time. If you follow the above link you will find that German and Italian eyewitnesses saw it too. So did Ms. Ruth Mitchell, sister of General Billy Mitchell, founder of the American Air Force.
Then Mr. "Baker" wants to apologize for mass, volunteer participation of Bosnian Muslims into Nazi SS. He says: "But ... this was precipitated by the wide-spread massacres and killings of muslims in the Sandjak region by Serbin Chetnik units." Another blunt lie. Where can we read about such "wide-spread massacres"? Give us reference. And when was Sanjak part of Bosnia? Never. Not even during Ottoman empire. Sanjacks were separate administrative units of the empire.
Last, but not least, Mr. "Baker" tries to sell us "that the Ustasha movement did not have the majority support of the Croatian people, in fact, it was never more than 5% of the population.". Reference!? Where can we read about the fictional number of 5.00%? My believe is that it was 98.83% that supported Ustashi. If those who read this text had no chance to see documentary of mass delirium of Zagreb Croats as they all came to streets in April 1941 to shower with flowers their Nazi "liberators", if you do not understand Serbo-Croatian and cannot understand recent Croatian books where they brag how good Nazis they were, you can probably find book by mentioned Ms. Ruth Mitchell "The Serbs choose war". In the book Ms. Mitchell, the eyewithness to the events claims (quote): "It is certain that about 90 per cent of the Croats were strongly pro- [Nazi] German [in 1941], while 90 per cent of the Serbs were strongly anti-German."
Do not get discouraged Mr. "Baker" your fictitious works are really entertainig. Poke into some of the subjects we did not talk about. Remind us of some other Nazi-apologist's claims. May be you will tell us that only 3.2% Germans were followers of Hitler? Your "estimates" and your "expert" knowledge of the Balkans is quite revealing.
Petar Makara (Makarov)
PS: By the way I could not log-in under my old user name and had to re-register. New York Times has some "technical difficulties"? Would not be unusual. Washington Post has the same (for five days now) - since some people p
p_makarov - 04:09pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#112 of 144)
Metamorphosis happened in front of our very eyes. While my message (#109) was addressed to Mr. (Ms?) "Aponine", Mr. (Mrs?) "Fedup" got to answer it (in #110). Split personalities were frequent among Ustashi apologizers in previous (canceled and then deleted from archive) NYT atempts at bashing the Serbs electronically.
Petar Makara (Makarov)
avoice - 04:15pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#113 of 144)
Mr. Markarov's last two posts have been so intemperate, that if I were a more suspicious sort than I am, I would almost think that he was really on the opposite side of the issue than he claims to be. Acting as an agent provacateur. Suggesting for instance that Mr. Baker's true name is Pekaric, which I think means "baker" as a name in Serbo-Croatian, is a leap of faith, or not to mention insulting a fairly innocuous poster such as aponine as being stupid. At this point we are crossing over from strong advocacy such as Mr. Dorich's to the borderlands of sanity. I can only suggest that if anyone actually wants the American public to become more aware of the Serbian views on the situation in Yugoslavia, this is not good way of going about it. Even righteous points made in conjunction with the intemperate language used here will inevitably harm the credibility of the cause. People will say, :consider the source."
P.S. Before you start imagining that because I happen to know what "pekaric" means, that this must mean I am an Ustashi sympathizer, just know that I happen to speak a number of Slavic languages and this is a common root word for baker.
fedup - 05:15pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#114 of 144)
You know what? I've really had a change of heart here. This is really too much like stepping into a bullring and tormenting a wounded beast. I'm really going to try and stifle my exasperation. Just one thing: Can you tone down the emotionalism? And can you provide a more honest picture of your history. I have not suggested once that your accusations against the Croats are lies. However, there is this sense that you are mixing truth and tale, and unfortunately it detracts from your credibility. This is going to sound as snotty as hell, but the way you represent yourselves, the Balkans sounds like some medieval hellhole. This is all just too negative. Maybe a forum should be set up to discuss Serbian culture, or something. Let's try a little positivism here.
StSava - 06:28pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#115 of 144)
After the hideous production on 60 Minutes this past Sunday I have prepared the following letter which was sent today to the production office of CBS
April 30, 1997
Mr. Robert Simon Mr. Michael Gavshon and the Production Staff of 60 Minutes 555 West 57th Street New York, New York 10019
Dear Mr. Simon, Mr. Gavshon and Staff,
As a Jew, Mr. Simon, you and your staff demonstrated the true meaning of “sensitivity impaired” by airing the Jadranka Cigelj sideshow on Orthodox Easter Sunday, the most sacred holiday of the Serbian people. If the Holocaust deniers presented a documentary on your Passover, the Jewish community would be screaming like stuck pigs, with you and Mike Wallace the most vocal! But you knew this was Orthodox Easter, no one can be so ignorant not to know that 300 million Orthodox Christians in the world celebrated Easter on Sunday, even CNN, a rabid hotbed of Serbophobes acknowledged the holiday by showing religious services not in Russia or Greece, but in Belgrade.
Mr. Simon, your presentation smacks of collective guilt of Serbian men and of partisan journalism. This disturbing presentation by 60 Minutes reeked like the odor from a sewer. Your abhorrent tactics of omission also demonstrated the depth to which you, Mr. Gavshon and 60 Minutes are willing to stoop to embellish a story. How cleverly you concealed the homosexual rapes of thousands of Serbian POW’s in this war. POW’s who were castrated and hundreds more who were forcibly circumcised as a form of torture. Apparently Mr. Simon, like your ruthless comrades, you, too, are on a Serbian witch hunt.
What value is it to have rape added to the list of “war crimes,” if arrogant journalists like you turn your back on the homosexual rape of Serbian men? Hundreds of these men will be sexually dysfunctional for the remainder of their lives while Ms. Cigelj can still have a normal sex life—once she gets over the rage that has brought her celebrity status. How many pounds of flesh is she entitled to while these Serbian men were raped and disfigured with impunity? You even defecate on their victimology by not revealing it. And, what about document #S24491 (December 18, 1992) consisting of 800 legal depositions of Serbian rape victims, the only document of its kind about rape at the United Nations on this war? You and your colleagues continue to ignore this document as you tell your viewers that ”women in this culture will not step forward when rape is the issue.” Serbian women did in 1992 and have been bedrayed by the feminists of the world as those Serbian women deserved to be raped and they were betrayed by the media who used rape to spice up every story printed in 1992 except the real story of who was being raped.
Serbian men were sexually raped, they also had broom handles and the fists of their perpetrators shoved into their anus which did enormous damage to internal organs. These sexual crimes have been substantiated and documented by Dr. Ljubica Toholj, professor of Gynecology at Belgrade University, the Director of the Yugoslav War Crimes Commission. How repugnant that not a single American newspaper or television network has told this outrageous story while it gives prominent exposure to a woman who has already revealed her willingness to use multiple names to deceive. Under each of those assumed names she claimed Victimology! Which one of these multiple victims are we to now believe, just Jadranka Cigelj? How abhorrent that elected officials, including the Helsinki Commission in the United States Congress have never had the “balls” to even speak about these hideous homosexual crimes against Serbian men in this war. What is your excuse, Mr. Simon?
mecken666 - 06:31pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#116 of 144)
A.M. Rosenthal likes to lie and slander the Chinese people.
I dunno what the Chinese people did to him, but he is mad at them all the time. Bad food?
I have spend a lot of time in mainland China and it is a nice country with no history of importing slaves from Africa or hatre against anyone unjustly. So I hope A.M. will reconsider his hatre toward the Chinese people.
StSava - 06:31pm Apr 30, 1997 EST (#117
Part two--60 Minutes
These homosexual crimes were also verified by Ms. Jane Olson of Helsinki Watch in a March 31st, 1993 presentation at Santa Monica College when she said, “Serb prisoners were forced to circumcise their fellow Serb prisoners as a form of torture.” Yet 4 years later not a single person in the American media has revealed this hideous story. Some of these men were so badly circumcised in un sanitary conditions that they became infected, they, too, will remain sexually dysfunctional as you, Mr. Simon, manage to look the other way.
Ms Jadranka Cigelj was a well paid propagandist of Croatian nationalist circles linked with the government in Zagreb, she was a member of the ISHR whose predecessor organization has been well documented to have historic links with the Nazi authorities in World War II and later with the German Secret Service, BND. She has been identified as a “political activists” and “vice chairperson” of Tudjman’s ruling party, the Croatian Democratic Society HDZ, and she worked for 4 years for the CIC, the Croatian Information Centre in Zagreb, Tudjman’s propaganda machine. The Hague denied her right to appear at the Tadic trial because of her multiple names and the degree in which her testimony changed with each consecutive interview. Yet, Mr. Simon, you failed to inform your audience about any of this background. Apparently the camp guard at Omarska was right, I, too, “wouldn’t park my bicycle against her.”
In Roy Gutman’s request to Banja Luka authorities to visit the Omarska Camp, he referred to Jadranka “Siget,” one of her phony identities. However, in his article 10 days later he called her “Cigelj.” In the ISHR brochure “God’s Forgotten Children” is a witness statement by a “Jadranka C.” and is without a doubt Ms. Cigelj as the statement is identical to the article written by Roy Gutman. There are also some incriminating contradictions. For example, in Gutman’s report she says that she was “released on August 3, 1992” when, in fact, the prison camp in Omarska was already closed down. However let us review the integrity of the author himself. In his author’s notes in Witness to Genocide he wrote: “Having set such lofty standards I immediately made an exception and wrote about the Omarska camp, which I had not visited, based on the secondhand witness account”(pg. Xii). In other words, Roy Gutman is a liar, his story about Omarska was supposition and based on hearsay and double hearsay. Getting a Pulitzer Prize for this trash reveals the abhorrent lack of creditability of that organization.
This kind of bilge, Mr. Simon, is exactly what you presented on 60 Minutes. Ms. Jadranka Cigelj may well have been raped, but what about her other assumed identities and those accusations? Her credibility is in question, too. Like Roy Gutman, Mr. Simon, you, too, make incredible exceptions for yourself. What a disgraceful display of the abuse of the free press. Thomas Jefferson swore eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man. Crawl back under your rock, Mr. Simon, where you belong!
William Dorich, President, Serbian American Voters Alliance, Pittsburgh