StSava - 03:41pm Apr 26, 1997 EST (#85
The Roman Pope and his clerical henchmen were quite expert at manipulation of the facts, taking their lead, no doubt, from the American media who called Serbian bombs those that “target women and children, schools and hospitals, nurseries and babies,” while Muslim and Croat bombs “hit military targets, pound positions, destroy opponents 'military machine' and bring a negotiated settlement closer, while it was believed that NATO bombs bring peace, enable a peaceful solution and bring war to an end.
In the actual historical perspective, more bombs dropped on Vietnam than in two World Wars combined and more bombs dropped on Bosnian Serbs in 14 nights than by the three ethnic parties in three years of war. I have seen footage of this destruction, it included Serbian churches, schools, hospitals, private farms, water supplies, bridges and apartment buildings. This was nothing short of an undeclared war against the Serbian people. You, on the other hand may call it what you like.
doctor13 - 09:14pm Apr 26, 1997 EST (#86
Dear Mr. Rosenthal. As you can see, your article has produced many highly emotional views with regard to Croatia's fascism, past and present. Emotions are indeed strong on all sides, particularly by those who feel that the atrocities committed by Hitler's fascist puppet state, Croatia, during World War II have never received justice. To the contrary, not only are the victims not receiving justice, they are being vehemently attacked by those on this forum who do not want to be reminded of the genocide committed by Croats and Muslims of over a million Serbs, Jews and Gypsies. Some even go so far as to deny the genocide ever took place even though there is documented evidence and holocaust archives to prove otherwise. These deniers of the truth have even attacked you for exposing the barbarisms that took place in Croatia's death camps.
Mr. Rosenthal, you have given these victims and their families a voice that has been suppressed for over 50 years. Unfortunately, the fascist Croatian criminal mind exists today as we have seen a replay in the Croatian offensive of August 1995. Apparently, the second phase of ethnic cleansing of Serbs is being prepared.
It would be very helpful if you would give some indication to us that you are, indeed, reviewing the comments made by those of us who are posting on your Forum. It would also be very helpful to know what your impressions are and how you view the war of words that is taking place.
doctor13 - 09:19pm Apr 26, 1997 EST (#87
The second phase of ethnic cleansing of Serbs is in the making. In preparation, the campaign to demonize the Serbs is already in full swing. The evidence is as follows: Sixty Minutes is preparing to air "a special segment," a story about rape, war and women, entitled "Calling The Ghosts," involving two women who charge that they had been raped by Serbs. If these two women have been raped, it is indeed a tragic story. But what about the 800 Serbian women who had given legal evidence of rape in Documenet #S24491 to The Hague? Their testimonies were refused by The War Crimes Tribunal. Apparently, the rapes of 800 Serbian women are insignificant to 60 minutes, preferring instead to devote their entire program to only two women while ignoring the 800 Serbian women. It is my understanding that one of the women on the CBS program has charged rape under approximately seven different names. The figure of 50,000 women raped by Serbs, although never documented, is constantly being used. In a letter to President Clinton on 14 April, 1994, Herb Brim of "Heritage SouthWest Jewish Press" wrote: "When I visited the Serbian front a year ago, I learned to my dismay that the rape story was a total concoction. In wars, rapes occur -- but in the hundreds of thousands and as a means of so-called 'ethnic cleansing?' This is incredible and false." Upon hearing the accusations, one Serb officer was heard to say that he wouldn't even park his bike up against a Muslim woman let alone rape her. To further demonize the Serbs, Peter Jennings has resurrected the story of the "Muslim" babies that had been killed by "Serb" snipers. However, it was later learned (and conveniently omitted in the media), that these were "Serb" babies killed by "Muslim" snipers as evidence by their being buried in Christian Orthodox graves with an Orthodox priest officiating at the service. However, when the story reached American TV, the priest was conveniently no where to be seen.
Why are all these accusations against the Serbs being brought up again at this time? Because I believe that the media is preparing to brainwash the American people into accepting the next phase of ethnic cleansing of Serbs, just as they were conditioned by the media to accept the last "ethnic cleansing" of the Krajina Serbs by Croatia's fascist forces in August of 1995 as just punishment for their crimes. The American public had been duly brainwashed with scenes of the breadline massacres committed by the Bosnian Muslim government but conveniently blamed on the Serbs. This time, Croatia's victims will be the Serbs either from Eastern Slavonia or from Brcko.
avoice - 12:10am Apr 27, 1997 EST (#88
Despite all of these horrific catalogs of atrocities committed against the Serbs that have been presented by Messrs. Dorich and Doctor13 -- and I believe that the undelying facts are probably true -- the abiding fact is that to a person who is neither Serb nor Croat nor Muslim Slav, there doesn't seem to be a choice bere between good guys and bad guys. Everyone in this recent war has been painted as murderers and with good reason. There are no blameless peoples here, although I consider that the Muslim Slavs, being the weakest of the forces in the field, have taken more than they have given.
And as to Mr. Dorich's assertion that my postings have insulted the Serbs, that is just the sign of how intolerant and sensitive the people involved in this argument are. To people who believe as does MR. Dorich, there can be no neutral position. One is either wholly enthralled by the righteousness of the Serbian position or one is against the Serbs. And that is the sad thing, because if anything, I personally am far more in sympathy with the Serbs and have more respect for them than the average man in the streets of the USA and West Europe. Certainly more than the average man in the USA who does not care whether these people destroy themselves for good once and for all. I do care. This is because I am aware of the contribution of the Serbs to the fight against the Germans and to the earlier struggles against the Turks (and the queer history of the Paulician and Bogomil heresy that brought about the Muslim Slavs) and the failure of the West to acknowledge this. I think if my memory serves right that the Serbs alone managed to tie down 30 to 40 divisions of Germans during the WWII -- quite a distinction. while the Croats to their shame supported the Germans. The problem is in the vituperative language used by the people like Mr. Dorich who is not a crank but holds a reponsible position in an influential emigre organization Nothing good can come of it; it is impolitic to put it mildly. The fantastic suggestion that the present Pope urged the killing of Serbians or that Cardinal Bernardin did (coupled as it was with the assertion that he was a sexual pervert) seems to me to be calculated to convince anyone that the Serbian apologists are apocalyptic or at the very best exaggerate their case wildly. Are Americans going to believe any of this? I do not, and I know a lot more about the various parties than most. If that were true, I suggest that the tape recording be produced. To seriously convince people of that you would have to catch John Paul and Clinton plotting red handed. In one thing though I do agree with Mr. Dorich, and that is that the introduction of German troops anywhere near Serbia would be a huge mistake. Just the symbolism alone would produce a disaster. The bottom line is that the more the Serbs try to paint the Croats black to more the Croats paint the Serbs black and so on ad infinitum and, frankly, ad nauseum. It is my respect for the Serbs that makes me state this not my disaffection. These kinds of accusations are irresponsible (unless proven) and are going to fall on deaf ears as just more propaganda. If anything the tone of such postings will operate to hurt the image of Serbians in the world and not help them. For many reasons including their out-and-out bravery the Serbians do not deserve to be a pariah state, but that indeed may be the direction things are going. And the kinds of uncompromising accusations that are aired here are going to affect this in a negative way. It's alright for gentlemen like our posters here to preach their bile to the Serbian choir, but not to the world at large. Even true believers have to take the sensibilities and opinions of their neighbors into consideration.
As far as a monarchy goes that seems to be matter for the Serbians and Montenegrans to decide. Spain reinstalled their monarchy and the world did not come to an end, and as far as I can see is doing ni
avoice - 12:57am Apr 27, 1997 EST (#89
the above message continued...
As far as a monarchy goes, that seems to be a matter for the Serbians and Montenegrans to decide without any outside influence. Spain reinstalled their monarchy and the world did not come to an end. and as far as I can see, Spain is doing nicely. In the case of Yugoslavia though, a king might be a welcome change. A monarchy might be exactly the deus ex machina needed to resolve the present impasse in the country. Something to get things off center and moving. Constitutional monarchies have a good record for stability in Europe. And that might just be the ticket in the Balkans, a living symbol to rally around. But I have no idea how the man in the street in Serbia feels about that. They might think its just window dressing and be more trouble than it's worth. Still for the reasons I have suggested, it might be a good idea. It could not hurt the Serbian's image in the West either. A nice picture of HRH Philip and Queen Elizabeth at a Yugoslave coronation would be a very soothing image I think.
kosovo - 08:24am Apr 28, 1997 EST (#90
AVOICE: Excellent post and Serbs should consider seriously your line of thought. As for Cardinal Bernadin, his accuser in Chicago recanted and admitted that he made up the charges. As for the Pope, in a Denver speech the Pope did call for bombing in the Balkans and used what seemed to me to be a neo-St. Thomas Aquinas just war logic. One more comment. It's not religion in Northern Ireland, it's ethnicity and religion is the foil. It's Irish versus English and Scottish immigrants of 350 years ago. In the same vein, studies of the Croatian Ustashe priests, mostly Franciscans indicate that when confronted with the prospect of hell and damnation their responses were clear. They were more into Croatian nationalism than being Catholic. In fact, one of my "Catholic" cousins on my Father's "Orthodox" side of the family was the infamous FR. Miroslav Filipovic-Majstorovic who was Jasenovac's most prolific killer-commandant. One of my graduates students happens to be a Franciscan and confirms that in his visit to Bosnia he was shocked that for the Croatian Franciscans ethnonational issues came first and being a Christian Catholic was second. So despite historical issues like the "Rat Line" and the Vatican's natural sympathy for the Croats, it should be understood that the issue is not Catholocism per se but a virulent strain of ethnonationalim. And by the way, Kudos to Rosenthal and the NY Times for it's recent focus on Croatia. After demonizing the Serbs for so long, this focus is long overdue. Now if the Times just can release it's blinders enough to go after Izetbegovic and his Islamic leanings, as well as the Muslim penchant to sacrifice and mortar their own people for PR gain, then we would get somewhere and realize that all the sides in the Balkans are guilty and apportionment of blame is a needless mathematical exercise.
Steven Majstorovic Duquesne University
avoice - 12:22pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#91
Whether the disaffection between the peoples of Yugoslavia comes down to ethno-nationalism (a new word for me) or religion or a combination of both may be interesting in the abstract, but for the moment, the practical question is what to do, It's unlikely that a 1000 years of historical emnity can be undone in one or two or even three generations. Each of the Yugoslav nationalities is going to be teaching their children their history in their own way, and there will be pleanty of vilification of their neighbors in this. Moreover, I would imagine that there are hardly any families who have not suffered losses in the recent war or WWII. Everyone's had at least an uncle or several cousins who have died and of course many survivors have had whole families slaughtered or uprooted. It's not easy to put thoughts of this aside and just get on with ordinary business.
The Slovenes and the Croats are doing well materially, sepecially the former. Bosnia-Hercegovina is still a potential battleground and I can not see any ecomomic progress. It may just wallow in stagnation for the whole time of this generation and maybe even longer. Serbia is bankrupt pretty much, but at least has the potential of getting its economy into some order if it can reenter into the society of nations. The present leadership can not do it. Whether it as evil a group as some say is not for me to judge, but I am certain it has lost the confidence and support of so significant a part of the poplulation that it can not effectively rule for the benefit of the whole nation but only for the benefit of its supporters, which just is not enough.. That's why I thought that the idea of reinstalling the Serbian monarchy, as silly an archaic a device as this is (and I would not recommend this to any other nation I can think of), might be just the splash of cold water that is needed to refresh the whole area--a psychological ploy.. But the dire circumstances call for a dramatic symbolic gesture and this might just be it,
I mention the ecomonies not just because I am an American and of course know that only money talks, but because it has been my experience that material wealth is the best balm for nationalistic hatreds. People driving around in cars and going to good restaurants are less likely to take up arms against their neighbors than people cowering in basements, Money is not a cure-all, but listening to warmonger speaking while you're sipping a good wine is very different than listening to the same speech and not knowing whether you'll have anything to eat.
doctor13 - 01:39pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#92
William Dorich Awarded the Order of St. Sava
On Easter Sunday, April 27, 1995, at St. Steven Serbian Orthodox Church in Alhambra, California, the Holy Sinod of the Serbian Orthodox Church awarded William Dorich the Order of St. Sava, the highest recognition given to a lay person in the Serbian church. This is one of the few times in recent history that the award was given by the entire counsel of bishops. The award is usually given to a deserving individual for their work in their own community and is presented by their regional bishop. The Holy Sinod of Serbian Bishops who represent Serbs around the world selected Mr. Dorich for the award because of “his effort for all of Serbdom and for being a powerful voice of the Serbs in the world today.”
God Grant Him Many Years!
pribichevich - 02:40pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#93
Avoice touches on the real root of these situations.Money is the cure-all. Every single extremist movement throughout history is directly linked to a poor economy. Nazis in Germany/Fascists in Italy/Klansmen in the US to name a few---all can trace their beginnings(and any resurgences) to a period when money was tight. The smartest thing done after WWII was to make sure that Germany had a solvent economy. This would make it more difficult for any resurgence of hatred. That hatred and extreme nationalism has resurfaced since the collapse of the Berlin Wall.Refugees from the Balkans(and elsewhere),untrained and un-employed east Germans have caused a strain on that once strong economy. The West should have prepared for this obvious result.
The plight of Yugoslavia is no different.Since Tito's death the rate of inflation has been on a steady astronomical upward spiral. It was only a matter of time that these "ancient hatreds" resurfaced. The West should have anticipated this as well.
Finnally-contrary to a comment directed at my earlier post-I am not out of touch with the feelings of my countrymen.The handfull of participants in this discussion- hardly present an accurate representation. There are agendas flying all over the place. The only one worth listening to-I have yet to hear.
fopol11 - 03:56pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#94
As ususal Mr. Rosenthal has written "on target".As soon as the communists left the scene,the communists of the right,aka the fascists,ttok over under the "Christiaan banner".Doesn't the world know or remembers how the Croatians helped Hitler during and before WWII?Thank you.FOPOL11.
p_makarov - 04:23pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#95
Mr. (or Madam) "Aponine"; says in message #78 that the links I have posted leave one with impression that the Serbs are "Blameless. Absolutely blameless".
I am sorry, but that is exactly the impression one gets when reading ANY Western book, any Encyclopedia entry about history of the Balkans. We purposely insisted on Western sources in providing the material. If you find a blame addressed at Serbs in any of the major literature (but written before this war broke out!) about a historical guilt that could be addressed at the Serbs please notify us (or post at this forum) so we know. Then we will be more than glad to add it to our Book of Facts.
In message #79 Mr. (Madam) "Avoice" agrees with Aponine's message adding (about me and anyone who dares challenge Western media propaganda war against the Serbs): "I'd say they were crazy, but that would be wrong. They are not crazy. They are true believers."
But what should we believe? Should we believe New York Times that "Croatian Serbs occupied one third of Croatia" as the Nazi propagandists have repeated this lie literally more than thousand times by now - or should we believe Encyclopedia Britannica & Encyclopedia Americana that these, so called Krajina Serbs settled in the depopulated area in 1578 at invitation of Habsburgs?
So which one is true:
1) New York Times claim that Serbs fell from Mars recently and in a landgrabbing spree grabbed barren rock mountains. (The idiots they are they did not grab any big city or industrial center. They did not grab infrastructure rich Adriatic coast. So, today, 80% of ex-Yugoslavia's coast ended up in Croatian hands.)
2) The claim that Serbs are INDIGENOUS (and majority) people in that area for centuries - as claimed by encyclopediae.
(To be continued in the next message)
p_makarov - 04:26pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#96
If the Serbs are indigenous people then how come NYT "forgot"; to tell us that?
Then NYT propagandists "forgot" to tell us anything about recent past and the fact that Croatia was a place of Nazism of the worst kind. They "forgot" to tell us that Bosnian Muslims volunteered en masse into Nazi SS units. They "forgot" to tell us that Serbian contribution to the defeat of Hitler's fascism was a pivotal one.
"Oh, but that was 50 years ago" say the propagandists. Or in Orwell's words (in his novel "1984", page 156): "History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right"
While trumpeting about "democratically elected President of Croatia" NYT "forgot" to mention the revisionist and anti-Semite capital works of Mr. Tudjman. They "forgot" to mention that today's Croatia resurrected its Nazi state to the last possible detail. They "forgot" to mention that hundreds of Nazi volunteers flocked, en masse, from every corner of the globe to help their Croatian friends.
Now, when we are facing fait accompli, when the largest ethnic cleansing of post WWII Europe is finished and ALL 600,000 Serbs are expelled from Krajina (thanks to American government and their support of Nazi Croatia) - now we can read ONE article - an opinion of ONE person (in OpEd) - astonished at Croatia resurrecting its Nazi state. (And there is not even a glitch of who Bosnian Muslims are, who their leader is, what atrocities were staged for the Western cameras, etc., etc., the list is too long just to mention all.
Would that all ammount to a "conspiracy" as you call it? When a whole nation is relentlessly bashed for years - I call it deliberate Nazi-like propaganda.
"As Americans" - they, the media, keep telling you (while they keep lying) - "you are entitled to know the facts." There, as American patriot I provided you with facts. (Oh, I forgot - "Patriots" are here in jail. So are also the "Free Men". But what else would you expect from this type of "democracy". Anything that you say may be, and will be used agaist you. That is Amendment No1 ).
What is astonishing is that they are so sure in their brainwashing techniques (that they learned from Mr. Goebbels) that this forum exist at all. But as seen from cases of "Aponine" and "Avoice" - it is safe. Some Americans are not just brainwashed as someone said - many of them are brain dead. The Big Brother can sell them anything. Their brains turned into a sponge.
Back to Orwell's "1984" and his unlucky prediction (page 194): "The two aims of the Party are to conquer the whole surface of the earth and to extinguish once and for all the possibility of independent thought."
Handful of American plutocrats conquered and rule the World. Some idiots among Americans still believe that this rule (and bombing
p_makarov - 04:29pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#97
The last part:
Handful of American plutocrats conquered and rule the World. Some idiots among Americans still believe that this rule (and bombing and mutilation of other people's children) would benefit an average American.
Signed in full name: Petar Makara (Makarov)
StSava - 04:39pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#98
How refressing indeed that Dr. Steven Majstorovic of Duquesne University and Petar Makara signed their names. I was beginning to think that I was the only person on this forum following the rules and not afraid to expose my real identity.
I am partucularly grateful to Dr. Majstorovic for revealing the hideous past of one of his relatives, a Franciscan priest who admitted on the witness stand to killing as many as 40,000 Serbs and Jews, mostly children. He was one of only a few that was convicted of war crimes after WWII while more than 1,500 Roman priest fled into exile in Argentina with false passports.
Dr. Majstorovic also brings up a very good point about Northern Ireland.
avoice - 05:42pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#99
Congratulations to Mr. Dorich on his receiving the order of St. Sava. This is a distinction that I am unfamiliar with and will defer to the other posters who brought it up to explain its significance..
Nowadays the word "agenda" is loaded with bad connotations so I will just say that most of the posters here seem to have in mind the intention of blackening as much as possible the reputations of their enemies and to a lesser extent in white washing the reputations of their friends. It may be politic amomg the Serbs to take this tack (and I think Mr. Dorich's newly won distinction is evidence that this is the case), but what end will this achieve in the long run? It may make a Serbian audience feel better about itself, but as to the rest of the readers, including myself, it seems that this is counterproductive, and may arouse the antipathies of people otherwise neutral or even sympathetic..
That said I agree though that coming from Mr. Rosenthal, the information he presented was important. I do not think he is exactly an unbiased observer of the scene but the very sad fact of the matter is that the depth of ignorance about the whole Balkan area is so profound amongst most people in this country that information such as given by Rosenthal is important so that a one-sided view be avoided. If you were to ask a 100 people on the street on whose side the Yugoslavs were during WWII (a kind of trick question) I would bet that not more than 1 of of these would even know that the Croats were on one side and the Serbs on the other, and maybe 5 out of a thousand would have any idea why. Against the background of this ignorance the information that Mr. Rosenthal conveyed has value.
As for the posters including Messrs. Dorich and Doc13, who wish to excite the public with statements that are anti-Roman Catholic or deprecate the present administration's policies with regard to Yugolsavia, of course these gentlemen are free to express their views, The caveat again is that it is highly unlikely as matters now stand that such expressions will secure any new allies to the Serbian point of view and may drive off some. And this is the same even if each and every statement made is true and uncolored by the prejudices of the posters.
aponine - 07:16pm Apr 28, 1997 EST (#100 of 100)
p_makarov 4/28/97 4:23pm You say you rely on only Western sources. Let's narrow down your sources here and speak more precisely. Are you referring to various royals who had ambitions of holding back the Ottoman empire from Europe?
I'm not an expert on the Balkans, and given the "expertise" I'm encountering in these posts, I can only count my blessings. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a zealot--let me just say that, reading the hatred in yours and others' posts, I can see how wars get started; the way Catholics and Muslims have been slandered here is disgraceful. I hear your bigotry loud and clear and it tells me alot more than any New York Times article ever could.
And just for the record: my name is not Andrew Krzemuski (God knows what ethnic innuendo is buried in that accusation)--so once again, I urge you--get your facts straight.