I do have a solid recollection of these good people's pilgrimage Romeward on the topic of Abortion.

My father is one of those who made the "switch," and subsequently helped push the anti-abortion plank thru the SBC.

Topic: Purgatory

From: john hendricks, 76673,1746 To: Charlie, 74461,1540

Christian City Forum Section: SmokeHouse<debate>

Msg # 81274, 1 Reply Mon, Mar 24, 1997, 6:59 PM -----------------------------------

Dear Charlie, ( and WELCOME to Mary Donna!)

Charlie: You seem to go on about Baptists...

Mary Donna: That is the biggest stretch of the month....wow a stretch and a smear by association! Aren't you the one who whines about catholic bashing? sheesh

No Mary Donna, I haven't mentioned "catholic-bashing"--In fact I would really like it if you do bash me. It helps me to reduce my time in Purgatory. With God's Grace I hope to arrive there someday.

I'm unaware if you have already bashed me, but if you have, thanks. If you intend to later on, make it hurt.

To both of you, let me APOLOGIZE for being chauvinistic about Baptists and Catholics. I know that there are other brands of Christianity out there. My problem is I have a tendency to "go on" about things I have studied a little. Since, during the time mentioned, I was a Southern Baptist preacher's teenage son (late sixties NOT the 4th Century,)

I do have a solid recollection of these good people's pilgrimage Romeward on the topic of Abortion. My father is one of those who made the "switch," and subsequently helped push the anti-abortion plank thru the SBC.

If I have insulted you by mistaking you for Baptists, I'm sorry.

I was a Baptist for 30 years. You could be in worse company.(smile)

Charlie : ...Check the history books....The East did not agree with Purgatory.... Do the "Eastern Fathers" have no authority in your brand of Christianity?

Charlie, speaking of the late sixties, there was a fad back then where we kids would spin 45 rpm records backwards to get secret messages off of them. Apparently that is what your source has done with the record of HISTORY. I mentioned 4 FOURTH (!!!) Century Fathers who explicitly taught about a state for dead people BETWEEN Heaven and Hell. THREE out these 4 were EASTERN FATHERS. I'm not telling you which - you might take my word for it, and not look it up yourself.

You have suffered enough from taking other people's word on things. (My source for this info is Encyclopedia Americana, Encyclopedia of Mideval Studies [Scribners] and our Cathechism. Just look up "purgatory" and "limbo")

While you are researching, please find me those "Eastern Fathers" who denied Purgatory's existence.To my (limited) knowledge Purgatory's EXISTENCE was NEVER a topic of the EAST/WEST debate. Augustine, Chrysostom, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus are still BIG among the Eastern Orthodox, and they believed in it. If you have found some "Fathers" who CONTRADICT them about the EXISTENCE of an intermediate state between Heaven and Hell, tell me where I, too, can unearth this information. You may be making a new convert. What are you by the way? Regarding 1 Cor 15:29

Mary Donna: ... He was saying "you believe THIS goofy, then why don't you believe in the resurrection of the dead?"...

Mary Donna, St. Paul is making a persuasive argument here, beginning in verse 12, and going on to verse 34. In persuasion you begin with truths which you share with your adversary, and you show him/her how those truths lead to your conclusion (and away from his/hers). Paul lists 6 things that don't make any sense if there is no resurrection: Our Lord's Resurrection, Paul's preaching, Paul's "hope", BAPTISM FOR THE DEAD, Paul's constant endangerment, Paul's fighting with wild beasts, in that order. Baptism for the dead is listed on the "truth" side of Paul's equation, denial of the resurrection is listed, as always, on the false side.

You are both telling me that Paul made the following argument: "If the dead are not raised, then things that DON'T make any sense (like Baptizing for the dead) DON'T make any sense." This would not be a persuasive argument, it would be an empty argument. Please, don't attribute such fluffiness to the Word of God. You are giving ammo to modernists.

Regarding Christ's sufficiency:

Mary Donna: ...Purgatory slaps that same Lord (Our Lord) in the face again, by insinuating that His death on the cross was...is insufficient.

Bravo Mary Donna! You do see there is a problem here. There are Protestant Scholars who try to claim Augustine, Mr. Fiery Purgatory, as one of their own. Purgatory and Protestantism ARE mutually exclusive positions.

The Church's position has always been, yes, Jesus paid it all, however...getting saved is often a very painful process (1 Cor 9:22, Heb 12: 10,11). God needs to CHASTIZE his children to get them ready for Heaven. This chastizement is ours to bear, because it is the way that Christ's merits are applied to our souls. Otherwise we wouldn't be going to Purgatory, we would be going to Hell. Catholics believe that God's chastizement is more a demonstration of God's love, than His Justice.

If either of you would be willing to accept the need and the logic of both of these truths: Jesus paid it all AND God punishes those whom He loves. Then I don't believe there would be much that would stand in the way of you coming home.

John (Raymond Lull)