RK>> Hello John: Regarding your message: <<RK

Hi Randall.

<< Do you believe your above reasoning is in keeping with the NT presented word and example of Jesus ? What did Jesus Christ ever say or do to lead anyone to believe that Christian service should ever be to kill anyone ? WBW, John>>

RK>> Again and again says if you love me you will keep my commandments.... our actions, duties, responsibilies to others are not defined by feelings or love apart from God's law...Rather, our being good neighbors..good citizens... even good church members, means living according to God's law. The Ten Commandments are the basis of our obedience/response to the grace of God in Jesus Christ. <<RK

No.

The Commandments are not the basis of our

obedience/response to the grace of God in Jesus Christ

At least not mine.

The basis of my obedience/response to the grace of God in Jesus Christ is belief in and gratitude for what Jesus Christ has done, is doing, and will do for me, most especially for his having atoned-died-paid for my sins.

As a revelation of God's will, the Ten Commands are not an improving addition to the NT revealed word and example of Jesus. Rather, the Ten Commands constitute a lower standard of 'morality' than the word and example of Jesus.

For instance, The commandment says- 'don't steal'.

Whereas Jesus says- 'give'.

The commandments prohibit/restrain 'bad'. Jesus inspires 'good'.

Jesus inspires 'good', not nearly so much [if at all] via 'law', but rather via the love and gratitude and love one feels for Jesus when one begins to grasp how much Jesus loves and has done for one.

RK>> Does your comment indicate a belief that believers--Christians- -are not allowed, permitted...are even forbidden from defending their homes, their lives, or their country????? <<RK

'For by FAITH the men of old pleased God'

'For without FAITH it is impossible to please God'. fr Heb.11

The example of Jesus indicates that NO ONE could kill Jesus until the time came as determined by God. Until that time came, NO ONE could kill Jesus. When that time came, then Jesus did not violently seek to protect His person.

BECAUSE OF JESUS CHRIST, I refuse to accept the fearful premise that if I don't reserve an option for violence for myself, then my wife, child, country, or 'church' will be left helplessly defenseless.

If I did not believe Jesus Christ has real power, then I would heartedly agree with your hypothetical.

Briefly, reserving for myself the option of violence, proclaims a lack of faith in the living reality and power of Jesus.

'Whatever is not of FAITH, is sin'. fr Rom.14

One cannot inspire others to place faith in Jesus, Unless one places faith in Jesus.

One cannot inspire others to place faith in Jesus, while one is in effect proclaiming to the world that one has no faith in Jesus regarding ones own security.

[and the security of ones family, friends, neighborhood, country, ethnic group, fetuses, or whatever else one is worried about]

Ah,... but can't you see they are killing babies ?

Presuming a fetus has a soul, the innocent soul is safe in Jesus.

Dare we presume our judgment and power is superior to Jesus's ?

One who believes physical death is the end has no faith in Christ.

The Christian goal is not to carnally smite the wicked, nor to live in fear that if I don't smite the wicked, then the wicked will 'get me or mine'.

But is rather to manifest-demonstrate faith in Christ both for my sake, and for the sake of bearing a witness to a world of non-belivers that apart from Christ are facing eternal death.

RK>> Think about it....if you conscientiously object in one instance... you are logically committed to do so in each. What ever that would be.... it does not fit my definition of justice and Christian duty. <<RK

The CHRISTian goal is to fit Christ's definition of CHRISTian duty.

To accurately understand CHRISTian duty, one must heed CHRIST.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.' Col. 2:8

Matt. 10:16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; therefore be shrewd as serpents,

Protecting sheep is the job of The shepherd.

Sheep can't fight or control wolves.

The sheep's security is the Shepherd.

His sheep know His voice.

John 10:4 "When he puts forth all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice".

RK>> Perhaps central to the issue the meaning...and significance of justice. What is just... what is a fair penalty for sin... both in this life and in the life to come??? It has to be that which God requires/reveals in his law. <<RK

Gal. 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God;

for if righteousness comes through the Law,

then Christ died needlessly." 1/2

RK>> Since the flood, capital punishment has been ordained as the restrainer of sinful men....if blood is shed, before the law, their blood is required. <<RK

And rivers of blood has been shed by, and vast slander of Christ has been generated by, the segment of 'christians' that claim they are authorized and mandated to shed the blood of those they deem 'sinners'.

Once you decide you are authorized and mandated to kill 'sinners',

then where does it end ?

The CHRISTian standard is CHRIST. He came to save sinners. Not kill them. The CHRISTian goal is to be used by Christ to save sinners. Not kill them.

Those that think they are authorized by Christ to kill sinners,

are caught in a dangerous delusion.

RK>> Hence, even if Paul Hill's slaying the doc and his body guard is conceived of as murder... he could well repent and be forgiven, and then be put to death for his "civil crime." Let's not confuse the work of the Church, with that of the state. <<RK

Agreed. Let's not. CHRIST's Church is CHRISTians.

The state, not claiming faith in Christ, not claiming to be CHRISTian,

IS authorized by God to to administer temporal-carnal justice.

I, claiming faith in Christ, am not.

RK>> God has ordained both institutions. Does your comment indicate a belief that believers--Christians--are not allowed, permitted...even forbidden from defending their homes, their lives, or their country????? <<RK

Who can best protect my home, life, and country ?

Me and my ability to be violent ? Or Christ ?

The only REAL security, now and eternally, is via faith in Christ.

Does one have belief in the living reality and power of Christ ? or not ? Does one have FAITH in and desire to manifest FAITH in Christ? , or not ?

RK>>Think about it....if you conscientiously object in one instance... you are logically committed to do so in each. What ever that would.... it does not fit my definition of justice and Christian duty. <<RK

Lord help us all carefully examine our conception of CHRISTian duty in light of the word and example of CHRIST.

RK>> Perhaps central to the issue the meaning... and significance of justice. What is just... what is a fair penalty for sin... both in this life and in the life to come??? It has to be that which God requires/reveals in his law. <<RK

It has to be that which God has revealed in His Son Jesus CHRIST.

At least, that's the CHRISTian faith.

RK>> Since the flood, capital punishment has been ordained as the restrainer of sinful men....if blood is shed, before the law, their blood is required. <<RK

Rom. 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith

RK>> I'll tell you this...I will defend to the end..with my last breath..., my family, my fellow citizens,and even my country, if I am so required-- -and believe I'm acting according to the will of Christ Jesus my Lord. <<RK

Unless the Lord builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the Lord guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain. Ps. 127:1

RK>> Wouldn't you protect your wife? your children? your parents or brothers or sisters if they were being stalked if it was in your means... to defend them? If you wouldn't your love for them is much different than mine is for my loved ones. It's almost instinctual....look at the animal realm.... <<RK

The 'animal realm' way to acquire security is not the way of CHRIST.

RK>> We are the government of our families as such the sword is placed in our hands to defend those in our care. <<RK

Ps. 44:3 For by their own sword they did not possess the land; And their own arm did not save them; But Thy right hand, and Thine arm, and the light of Thy presence, For Thou didst favor them.

"Or do you have an arm like God,

And can you thunder with a voice like His? "Adorn yourself with eminence and dignity; And clothe yourself with honor and majesty. "Pour out the overflowings of your anger; And look on everyone who is proud, and make him low. "Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him; And tread down the wicked where they stand. "Hide them in the dust together; Bind them in the hidden place.

"Then I will also confess to you,

That your own right hand can save you. ........ Job 40:9-14

RK>> Does this conviction apply in the case of the unborn and those who slaughter them? Ah, now there's the crux of the question. How vigorously should we defend the helpless, the fatherless, the oppressed? <<RK

The CHRISTian question is-

How vigorously do we seek to heed the guidance of CHRIST ?

RK>> Oh, well. I should get on to other things. Take care and God bless. Randy K <<RK

With best wishes, John