On The Religious Beliefs of W: Is George Bush Really A Christian?
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Erik the Bloodaxe- 09:31 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind
Not according to this essay. Or this one. And here is what another writer has to say about the religious beliefs of George Bush (from Onlinejournal.com)

Now, can anyone tell me with a straight face that George W. Bush is really a Christian. If so, I have some oceanfront property in Kansas f

cont.

for sale real cheap.

George Bush is not a Christian. Anyone agree or disagree with that? 

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Erik the Bloodaxe - 09:42 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #2 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

The first essay linked above can be found here.

Sorry about that. 

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Clacson- 09:46 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #3 of 264

About as Christian as Bob "took my wife to get an abortion" Barr. 

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Mark Gunn - 09:49 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #4 of 264
Jesus, save me from your followers.

W. is only a Christian for political gain. 

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M. Indbomb - 09:51 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #5 of 264
"There goes the neighborhood" - D.C. residents

About as Christian as Bob "took my wife to get an abortion" Barr.

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Verwirrung- 09:51 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #6 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Jesus saves. God pays. 

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J Swadesh - 10:05 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #7 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

No one can remember Shrub saying anything at the time he claims to have been "born again". That is the single most persuasive piece of evidence that he is simply continuing a pattern of lying that began with his desertion from the National Guard and proceeded through his drinking and alleged doping and womanizing right through to his election theft. 

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Amy Ballentine - 10:08 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #8 of 264
"If somebody's got a better idea, I hope they bring it forward, because I will listen" GWB, 01/23/2001

Jesus saves souls and redeems them for valuable coupons.

Actually, I read something a while ago about how Gore's political opinions were too liberal for teh Baptist chuch, and Shrubs too conservative for the Methodist church. I have no link.

No, I don't think Shrub is a Christrian. I think he says whatever fits the moment.

Sorry for the atrociaous spelling - I cut my finger and my typing skills are way off. 

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M. Indbomb - 10:13 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #9 of 264
"There goes the neighborhood" - D.C. residents

Jesus saves, but Fernandez gets the rebounds. 

Susan MacFarland - 10:14 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #10 of 264
Gore won Florida. Check it out for yourself at http://www.democrats.com/display.cfm?id=181 GORE WON THE ELECTION. What has happened in this country?

Ouch. Hope your finger feels better, Amy.

I can't imagine a Christian mocking someone who is pleading for their life, especially when this "Christian" is about to have the person killed. 

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Brian Sponsler - 10:14 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #11 of 264

Great. The guy whose tagline insists that Christians shouldn't identify themselves is bitching because (he claims) GW didn't run around announcing that he'd been born again.

But, would you like him more, or less, if you were convinced he was a Christian? You know - that mind controlling, patriarchial cult mainly responsible during its 2000 year history for witch-burnings and the suppression of peaceful, nature-loving pagans? 

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Amy Ballentine - 10:27 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #12 of 264
"If somebody's got a better idea, I hope they bring it forward, because I will listen" GWB, 01/23/2001

Thanks Susan. It is okay now, just so bandaged that typing is hard. I was being stupit with an exato knife, and I should have known better.

Brian, J Swadesh was not talking, I don't believe, about Shrub runnign for Pres., but about at the time of his being born again, at which time he was in the public eye, have made a failed run for Congress.

Were I to believe that Shrub was a real Christian, I would not give him any grief about it. I do not lay the entire sorry history of christianity at the feet of individual chrisitans. 

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(Deleted message originally posted by Brian Sponsler on 10:41 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001)

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Brian Sponsler - 10:41 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #14 of 264

He is claiming that because in 1986 (the year of his supposed conversion) GW didn't run around proclaiming that he had been born again enough for word to get back to Swadesh, that that is evidence that the conversion did not occur.

Pretty idiotic position, but then that's all I'd expect from him. The fact that Swadesh claims (each and every time he posts) that he doesn't even want to hear such claims just make it more amusing.

But continue to do your thing - bitch because W is a Christian and bitch because he isn't one. I guess you think that's fun, and obviously your intellectual rigour allows it. 

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Erik the Bloodaxe - 10:47 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #15 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

Sponslor,

George Bush is not a Christian. JSwadesh is merely stating a fact that is positively self-evident based on Bush's behaviour, mannerisms, words, and actions since his purported "conversion" to Christianity.

Many millions of sincere, believing Christians voted for the man because they thought he was one of them. He's a fraud plain and simple.

Anyone who supports him or his policies needs to take a good heard look at who they are supporting. 

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Abigail Quart - 10:52 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #16 of 264
"Tyranny begins when one power, one church, one party introduces itself into the private life of its citizens." - Jack Lang, former French minister of culture.

Depends on how you define "Christian" I guess. 

Aml Clymer - 10:53 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #17 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

Erik the Bloodaxe ..great post...when you get finished with whether President Bush is a Christian, please do share you enlightened view on others. Is Barney Frank a "real" homosexual? Was Mother Teresa a "real" Catholic? Does Jess Jackson "really" believe what he says? Is Alan Deshowitz a "hypocrite" for teaching a course at Harvard Law entitled "Religion and the Law"? Is Joe Lieberman really a "Jew"? Did OJ Simpson really "kill" his wife?

If that is not enough...go to some other countries, ask them if they "really" are what they say they are. You will not meet the tolerance your ilk meets here. 

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J Swadesh - 10:57 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #18 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

Great. The guy whose tagline insists that Christians shouldn't identify themselves is bitching because (he claims) GW didn't run around announcing that he'd been born again.

Surprisingly, some of his closest friends were not aware of any momentous passage or prodigal son's return or any great religious awakening. For instance, during the period in the mid-80s when, Bush says, he found Christ and gave up drinking and "got right with God," Mike Conaway, who worked with him every day from January 1982 until September 1986, says, "I didn't see any change in his behavior." Curiously, Bush never sat down and talked with his prep-school and college roommate, Clay Johnson, who works with Governor Bush as his chief of staff, about "his increased religiosity.<http://www.gailsheehy.com/Politics/polimain_bush3.html>

But, would you like him more, or less, if you were convinced he was a Christian?

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Mike McG - 10:57 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #19 of 264
Shuck Frub

Well, since I'm a Catholic and therefore, according to Shrub's pals down at Bob Jones U., a member of a cult and not a Christian, I guess I don't have any right to say anything on this topic. 

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Organic2000- 10:58 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #20 of 264
"Democracy does not need the church or the clergy. The fruits of Christianity in both clergy and laity, are superstition, bigotry and persecution." -- President John Adams, 1784.

See the Presidunce praying at th flag pole.

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Brian Sponsler - 10:58 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #21 of 264

Yeah, yeah, Bloodaxe - I know - you're just so concerned about all those "decent", "sincere" Christians out there. You're only thinking of them!

How about letting us "decent", "sincere" Christians make up our own mind, ok? Oh - I forgot - we did. Bush won.

Now go back to whatever Norse-flavored New Age bullcrap you claim to favor while hanging with your SCA buddies. Real shame about Christianity breaking up that practice of burying your wives and slaves with you for the trip to Vahalla. Guess we'll have to do penance for that! 

M. Indbomb - 11:00 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #22 of 264
"There goes the neighborhood" - D.C. residents

Getting a little testy aren't we Brian? 

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J Swadesh - 11:04 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #23 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

Bush won.

Please go back and answer the fact that I have a quote stating that no one can remember Bush's conversion. 

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Jim Sagle - 11:05 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #24 of 264
GOP slogan, adapted from the Russian: "We pretend to integrity, and our followers pretend to believe us."

Bush won.

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Brian Sponsler - 11:06 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #25 of 264

What's to discuss, Swadesh? The fact that you'd hang such a pathetic attempt at character assasination under your tagline is proof of the shallowness of your thinking, that's all.

Is some kind of Swadesh-approval required of post-conversion behavior? Perhaps you should publish a Swadesh-approved guidebook for how to behave - I hope you'll cover all the major faiths!

People react to things in different ways. The fact that GW may have responded just like you ask others to is apparently lost on you. Maybe you should leave your phone number. If anyone reading this thread has a religious conversion, I'm sure you'll want to be informed. 

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J Swadesh - 11:07 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #26 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Jim

Thou shalt not lie.

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Brian Sponsler - 11:08 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #27 of 264

Oh - and he won. You could look it up. The vote was 271 - 267. That's why he is the President now.

And "lie" is a perfectly good translator's choice, btw. It wasn't written in English. 

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J Swadesh - 11:12 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #28 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

What's to discuss, Swadesh? The fact that you'd hang such a pathetic attempt at character assasination under your tagline is proof of the shallowness of your thinking, that's all.

You have made a number of hateful personal remarks about me. That speaks volumes about you.

You have spun and twisted to get away from the topic. But you have failed to answer the fact that no one can remember George Bush mentioning anything about this momentuous experience. 

J Swadesh - 11:14 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #29 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

Oh - and he [Bush] won. You could look it up. The vote was 271 - 267.

It is part of the sickness that makes it clear that George Bush has never been born again. 

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Rugellos Maase - 11:18 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #30 of 264
clintonista spin it out , "...to avoid prosecution, Clinton lied when he admitted that he had lied under oath."

Well, I'm not a Christian. I'm atheistic, a Jew by birth. I'm not prepared to identify "real" Christians.

But I am tolerant of all religions and those who profess to be religious. A liberal trait of which I'm rather proud. A liberal trait obviously absent in the "liberal faux" populating TT recently (several veterans of TT as well).

"ware the jackbooted goose stepping totalitarian thugs of the left (not to be confused with liberals) and the jackbooted goose stepping totalitarians of the right (not to be confused with conservatives). 

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Brian Sponsler - 11:21 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #31 of 264

You should read for content, Swadesh. I never accused you of making anything up. What "lie" do you think you've exposed?

I've never challenged your assertion that Bush didn't tell people that he had been saved. What the hell are you talking about? 

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Rugellos Maase - 11:24 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #32 of 264
clintonista spin it out , "...to avoid prosecution, Clinton lied when he admitted that he had lied under oath."

"...the fact that no one can remember George Bush mentioning anything about this momentuous experience. "

But the statement, as you've put it, is bearing false witness. 

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J Swadesh - 11:26 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #33 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian 1

You should read for content, Swadesh. I never accused you of making anything up. ...I've never challenged your assertion that Bush didn't tell people that he had been saved. What the hell are you talking about?

"Great. The guy whose tagline insists that Christians shouldn't identify themselves is bitching because (he claims) GW didn't run around announcing that he'd been born again."

He is claiming that because in 1986 (the year of his supposed conversion) GW didn't run around proclaiming that he had been born again enough for word to get back to Swadesh, that that is evidence that the conversion did not occur. Pretty idiotic position, but then that's all I'd expect from him.

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Rugellos Maase - 11:27 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #34 of 264
clintonista spin it out , "...to avoid prosecution, Clinton lied when he admitted that he had lied under oath."

"...the fact that no one can remember George Bush mentioning anything about this momentuous experience. "

But the statement, as you've put it, is bearing false witness. 

Brian Sponsler - 11:27 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #35 of 264

The county I live in carried Bush by 64% and uses punchcards. I suppose that you, and Al Gore, and all the other Democratic "good Christians" would be willing to decide the election based on a count (by our throughly Republican local leaders) of the hanging chads in our ballot boxes? You lost, get over it.

Obviously, many non-Christians would prefer to translate the word "Christian" into "Spineless Sucker Who Utters Encouragment, No Matter What I Do".

No thanks. 

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J Swadesh - 11:32 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #36 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

And now, to return to the topic of the thread: What evidence is there that George Bush is a Christian?

It has been pointed out that he claims to have been born again, but he never mentioned it at the time. No one noticed a change of behavior. We are asked to rely on his word.

It has been pointed out that he has been very slow to confess sin or demonstrate repentance. Multiple arrests, drunk driving, desertion-- it's all youthful indiscretions, washed away by his re-birth in Christ.

Which no one can remember him mentioning.

It has been pointed out that he lied repeatedly about his record in Texas. Pretty hard to argue that lying is an emulation of Jesus.

He's a big fan of the death penalty. Kind of hard to believe Jesus would have been.

And then there is this nasty business in Florida. Laws broken left and right. Cronyism. Mobs of paid congressional aides and Stormfront neoNazis acting as enforcers, Plainly unethical acts by Supreme Court Justices that were appointed by aWol's father.

Show me the acts of kindness, of peace, of gentleness, of mercy. Make the case,if there is one. 

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Brian Sponsler - 11:33 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #37 of 264

I'm stumped, Swadesh. I did characterize this:

J Swadesh - 10:05 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001 - #7 of 35

"No one can remember Shrub saying anything at the time he claims to have been "born again". That is the single most persuasive piece of evidence that he is simply continuing a pattern of lying..."

as

"claiming that because in (the year of his supposed conversion) GW didn't run around proclaiming that he had been born again...is evidence that the conversion did not occur."

Did you mean to say something else? 

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J Swadesh - 11:34 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #38 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Can you just stay on the thread topic, Brian? Or is your case for George Bush so hopeless, so pathetically weak that you are forced to try to talk about anything else except George Bush's highly questionable membership in the Body of Christ? 

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J Swadesh - 11:36 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #39 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

. I did characterize this: J Swadesh - 10:05 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001 - #7 of 35 "No one can remember Shrub saying anything at the time he claims to have been "born again". That is the single most persuasive piece of evidence that he is simply continuing a pattern of lying..." as claiming that because in (the year of his supposed conversion) GW didn't run around proclaiming that he had been born again...is evidence that the conversion did not occur.

Aml Clymer - 11:41 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #40 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

What is most amusing is that those who believe in nothing but the state are so eager to chime in and tell various believers what they should believe.

I hear more quotes from the Bible from the secular left than I have ever heard from my brethren on the right. Or even in college when that was my major.

Jerry Falwell thinks homosexuality is a sin...I have no problem with that. Joe Lieberman thinks God will get him if he eats lobster or oysters...OK by me...somebody wants to pray to Mecca five times a day...no sweat off my back...somebody else thinks moonstones have some magical power...even better! I will sell to them wholesale (Wiccans are some of my best customers).

But this left wing crap about the religious right...give me a break...it might play well in certain areas but, despite being a lie, it is rather ...well....trite and retro... 

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Brian Sponsler - 11:45 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #41 of 264

Swadesh, not being God, nor infalliable Mother Church, I am not capable of determing if a given individual is or is not a member of the Body of Christ. I think speculation on the state of the soul of another person is bad practice, most probably evidence of pride, and I am not going to do it.

You are merely attempting to generate this little parlour game to score political points, and I believe that your notions about how Christians are "supposed" to act is based more on that than on any understanding of theology.

But you have accused me of lying, and upon being asked was only able to cut and paste portions of my three posts, none of which were contradictory, and none of which accused you of lying.

So, as one who supposedly understands how Christians are to act, I believe you should clearly specify exactly what you believe my lie to have been, so that I may seek forgiveness for any mistake I may have made regarding you. Certainly, you should be able to support your accusation that I have broken a Commandment. 

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Aml Clymer - 11:56 pm PST - Jan 25, 2001  - #42 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

Brian Sponsler...well put! Your faith is YOUR faith.

One thing to debate theology. Another thing to throw around quotes from something you don't believe in the first place to denigrate another's faith (as seems to be the rule around here).

But that is the easy way to gut an opponent. One can quote the Koran, the Talmud, the New or Old Testament, the Tibetan Book of the Dead or any other holy book and make those who follow that religion appear, to the uneducated, to be stupid. 

J Swadesh - 12:08 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #43 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

I think speculation on the state of the soul of another person is generally a bad practice, most probably the evidence of false pride, and I am not going to do it.

But you have accused me of lying, and upon being asked was only able to cut and paste portions of my three posts, none of which were contradictory, and none of which accused you of lying.

You also have made the lying implication that I have invented something by continuing to use the phrasing "he claims". But facts have been presented. Facts that you refuse to address, but instead met with "What's to discuss, Swadesh?" At that moment, you sustained your lie rather than answer the argument.

It is even a lie to claim that "So, as one who supposedly understands how Christians are to act," since I have never made such a claim. I have merely pointed out a well-sourced fact: that a man claims (years later, when starting to run for political office) that he was born again. Yet people who knew him at the time did not notice anything and he did not tell them that anything remarkable had occurred.

So, as one who supposedly understands how Christians are to act, I believe you should clearly specify exactly what you believe my lie to have been, so that I may seek forgiveness for any mistake I may have made regarding you. Certainly, you should be able to support an the accusation that I have broken a Commandment.

But there's little point in me pointing out the massive hypocrisy between your behavior tonight and that of a professing Christian. I think if you'll read the epistles, you'll find that there's the suggestion that people who follow Jesus are convicted and changed by what is in their own hearts.

And now, since you have nothing to say and have been saying it at length, I think I'll enjoy my slumbers. 

P Glass - 12:34 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #44 of 264
Where I live, illegal residents are not called 'presidents', they are called 'squatters'.

And while you're slumbering, Joel:

Bush to Focus on a Favorite Project: Helping Religious Groups Help the Needy

WASHINGTON, Jan. 25 — President Bush said today that he was committed to making federal money more available to religious organizations that provide social services, a push that will be the focus of Mr. Bush's public statements and legislative proposals next week.

Aides said Mr. Bush's emphasis on using faith-based groups to aid the needy was likely to lead to a vigorous debate over the separation of church and state.......

Senior Democratic aides on Capitol Hill said the issue had not really arisen yet in concrete form. But many Democrats may well support the gist of Mr. Bush's proposals, these aides said. During the presidential campaign, former Vice President Al Gore, like Mr. Bush, advocated a more active role for religious organizations in federally funded social services.

Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, said, "I certainly think it's worth exploring, provided that there's some importance or sanctity given to the separation of church and state."

NYTimes

Here we go, folks. My money confiscated by your friendly church, temple, mosque and Evangelical what-have-you...any idea the corruption we're in for here?

"Religious groups and social services will be his focus, even though some Christian religious leaders who have spoken with Bush aides in the last few weeks said that the administration seemed unclear about how its new office for this effort would work.

As late as Wednesday, they said, Bush advisers were still asking evangelical groups for lists of religious organizations whose work they could mention when the Mr. Bush's initiatives are unveiled."

Mrs. Parker - 01:13 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #45 of 264

No one has to "guess" what character traits a Christian should display. The model of Jesus Christ was quite clear. I quote from the third article linked above:

First: What kind of God-fearing man could face the American people and claim a prize that he knows rightfully belongs to another man? What kind of dark heart would a person require to present himself to be sworn in, acclaimed, and heralded by "Hail to the Chief" while knowing that another man earned those celebrations? Surely a good, decent, born-again Christian could not accept such an appointment! Surely a person who claims to follow the teachings of Jesus would feel overwhelming guilt over the open theft from Al Gore for reasons of personal and partisan gain. Surely a Christian would denounce the suppression and exclusion of votes and insist on winning openly and fairly, or not at all.

[Sunday school teacher] Mrs. Dempsey would make short shrift of such action. "Thou shalt not steal."

Second: What would Jesus say about a man of power who would routinely and earnestly use that power to advance the interests of oppressors and profiteers at the expense of the poor and desperate? In the Colonia communities of Texas, brown-skinned children scratch holes in the dirt to defecate because there is no running water or sewer. George W. Bush has never visited the children of the Colonias. Texas is the second-hungriest state in the U.S. George W. Bush simply said he didn't believe that was true. In dozens of categories, the basic qualities of life for Texas families are neglected. George has asked Americans to admire his Texas record and trust that he will improve their lives and leave "no child behind" and allow the American dream to touch "every willing heart." And yet his pre-inauguration meetings have been with millionaires and profiteers and captains of industry and oppressors. George's meetings with the children of the Colonias and Appalachia and housing projects everywhere haven't made the pre-presidential schedule. Policy priorities are pretty clear, George.

The model of Christ is very plain, said Mrs. Dempsey. Treat each man is if he were your beloved brother. Respect him for his humanity and because he is made in God's image. Give him your coat if he asks for your shirt. Give sacrificially to those who have less, with no expectation of return, and no public display. Don't make another beg for help. Visit the sick, feed the poor, and free the prisoners. Hold your tongue. Don't wait for the armies of compassion. Do it yourself and do it now. "Give till it hurts!" she would say. And if you are a rich, powerful man who can choose to assign resources to wealthy profiteers who will pay you back in favors or power or wealth or to assign resources to children digging toilets in the dirt, there should be no hesitation or equivocation. "Suffer the little children" was not a commandment.

Third: A follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ could not slap around a whole people who are descended from slavery and saddled with widespread poverty and discrimination in the way that George has slapped them with his appointment of Ashcroft and Chavez to the Departments of Justice and Labor. An earnest and genuine follower of Christ could not so injure and intimidate Black leaders that only a few determined Congresswomen would dare to speak the truth about a stolen election. A man determined to live as Jesus instructed him could not allow racialists and bigots and theocrats and thugs to put him in power and use him to further their own grabs for empire and wealth. A man of pure intentions could not send thugs to quash the counting of votes from poor people. A man who truly is a healer could not bring about the misery that divides this country this night, or allow it to stand.

Continued... 

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Mrs. Parker - 01:15 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #46 of 264

continued...

The Fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness (meekness), goodness, patience, faithfulness, and self-control. Blessed are the peacemakers, the poor, the hungry, those who weep and those who are hated. Sunday schoolers learn that pride, envy, lying, gossip, malice, bearing false witness and greed must be set aside. I dare not think about what Mrs. Dempsey would do to someone who called another an "asshole." I do have a pretty good idea what Jesus would think about a lot of the things George does in his public life.

It's time for George W. Bush to either profess his faith or deny it. Either he is a follower of the teachings of Christ and must consistently behave like one, making the required sacrifices and earning the sanctification bestowed on him by followers, OR he is not a follower of Jesus and may behave with all the pride, arrogance, greed, and lust for wealth and power his little "heart" desires and that he currently and openly pursues.

It's got to be this or that.

Erik the Bloodaxe - 02:00 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #47 of 264
George W. Bush: A President in His Own Mind

Ah, I see the freeps have shown up to try and derail this thread.

Brian, I am not a "New-Age Norse Pagan" as you insinuated some posts back. I am a baptized Catholic (which according to BJU and John Ashcroft makes me a member of a 'papist cult' who is bound straight for Hell). I can address the issue of George Bush's purported Christianity. As was eloquently stated by JS, I am required to speak out against George Bush on this matter because by his actions he is defaming the Name of Christ.

He is not a Christian. If he was, he would have publicly stated that he wanted all the votes in Florida counted by the standards he signed into law in Texas. Then he would have said that he would have abided by whatever result came out of that count.

He didn't. He did everything he could to stop the counts going on in Florida.

This is not the action of a man committed to Christ.

This is the action of a power-hungry despot who would go to any length to grab power.

I am required to speak out against him on this matter, but in addition to that, I am required to pray for him. Only he can come to the Light and see the Truth. I and others on this thread can lead him to the Water of Life that is Jesus. We can't make him drink. If he does not repent of his ways, he will go to Hell and be eternally separated from God's love and acceptance.

He is not a Christian and only he can change that fact. However, if he doesn't change that fact before he dies, then he goes to Hell.

I'd rather prefer that he not take this country with him, thank you very much. 

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Nina Dee - 02:24 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #48 of 264
"Sir, you have to understand," Klain said. "This is Guatemala."

I don't normally answer these kinds of posts, but Brian. Bush LOST.

This will not be an argument after the heat of the moment passes. You can argue over ideology forever, over whose policies you prefer, but as to who got the most votes: that won't be in any doubt. Even ardent Nixon partisans no longer argue that Nixon ran a clean election! The history books will tell this story (if there are history books) and they will say that Gore won and that Florida's election was rigged and the Supreme Court decision was corrupt. Them's just the facts. 

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Tony Karp - 03:55 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #49 of 264
In the end, GW Bush was a uniter -- He united his enemies

I'm not an expert on religion, so maybe someone here can enlighten me.

What is the actual link between the belief of the Pro-Lifers ("Life begins at conception and ends at birth") and the teachings of Christ? 

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Franny Rose - 04:04 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #50 of 264
Democracy, quite simply, was poisoned to put George W Bush in the White House. -- UK Guardian, 12/14/00

I find the comments of Bush's close friends that they noticed no difference at the time of his supposed religious experience to be revealing.

I know about the religious orientation of all my friends, even ones that I rarely see. We have here a close friend who saw Bush every day saying that he noticed no difference.

Normally a person would tell a close friend about such an experience. And considering Bush's early life is hardly one of model citizen, changed behavior alone should have been evident.

Isn't there some comment from Bush after his early unsuccessful political effort in Texas (late 70's) where he says he'll never again be out-Jesused? I may be mixing stories. Does anyone remember? 

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(Deleted message originally posted by Verwirrung on 04:19 am PST - Jan 26, 2001)

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Verwirrung- 05:35 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #52 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Twelve hours of earthquakes, in India, Sumatra, the Philippines, Japan, Greece, and Ohio. Bush's minions are escaping to the surface... 

Tina Kramer - 05:44 am PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #53 of 264
Put Marvin Miller in the Baseball Hall of Fame.

It's been my experience that newly "re-born" Christians tend to be rather vocal and enthusiastic about it. The ones I knew couldn't stop talking about their new-found faith. 

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(Deleted message originally posted by kittey morgan on 08:08 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001)

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J Swadesh - 08:19 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #55 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

P Glass

Here we go, folks. My money confiscated by your friendly church, temple, mosque and Evangelical what-have-you...any idea the corruption we're in for here

Needless to say, now that her circumstances have improved, her rage at Mormons and Republicans is enormous.

"Faith-based charity" is a truly awful idea whose time is long past.

~~~~~

Mrs. Parker

The Fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness (meekness), goodness, patience, faithfulness, and self-control.

I shouldn't even get started on love. Capital punishment, 15 minutes spent reviewing condemned men's records for clemency, mocking Karla Faye Tucker, leaving his daughter alone after surgery...

It's time for George W. Bush to either profess his faith or deny it. Either he is a follower of the teachings of Christ and must consistently behave like one, making the required sacrifices and earning the sanctification bestowed on him by followers, OR he is not a follower of Jesus and may behave with all the pride, arrogance, greed, and lust for wealth and power his little "heart" desires and that he currently and openly pursues.

~~~~~~~~~~

Tony

What is the actual link between the belief of the Pro-Lifers ("Life begins at conception and ends at birth") and the teachings of Christ?

Pro-lifers have seized a small portion of that-- the life of the fetus-- and elevated it above all other values. Thus they do not care about babies once they are born-- the fact that they die of starvation or malaria or at the end of a hangman's rope is of utter indifference. They have no sense of the totality of what it means to love life.

I am pretty sure that Jesus would be appalled by the reimposition of the Mexico City Rules excluding federal funds for organizations which perform abortions, because He would see the totality of it. No federal dollars are used for abortions and those organizations' major functions are making contraception and family planning information available. The Mexico City Rules result in more abortions, because there is less contraception. And thus, in the name of Jesus, life is needlessly extinguished.

And George Bush, who claims to have been born again, has just sealed the doom of countless unborn lives.

Tina

It's been my experience that newly "re-born" Christians tend to be rather vocal and enthusiastic about it. The ones I knew couldn't stop talking about their new-found faith.

Kittey

Re born means no jail nor jailtime. Nothing more n

Aml Clymer - 11:10 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #56 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

An amusing post. Liberals have no moral or intellectual ground for commenting on whether Bush is a Christian or not. Nor, after these last 8 years, do they have any right to comment on morality in general.

Liberals commenting on God, religion and morality make about as much sense as Heinrich Himmler commenting on the finer points of the Talmud and Jewish tradition. 

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Abigail Quart - 11:19 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #57 of 264
"Tyranny begins when one power, one church, one party introduces itself into the private life of its citizens." - Jack Lang, former French minister of culture.

I've spread the Mormon essay as far as I can. I even got a response from a die-hard Southern conservative former classmate. It is a spectacular statement.

Thank you for finding it, Erik. 

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Marie Cook - 11:21 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #58 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

If God offers forgiveness to sinners how is it that those who believe in him can be condemned for the same.

Who is and should be the final arbitor of what is moral for yourself, your neighbor or yourself? 

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Aml Clymer - 11:32 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #59 of 264
"The largest percentage of cuts would go to those Americans who earn the least."--Zell Miller (D-GA)explaining the $1.3 trillion tax cut he is sponsoring with Phil Graham (R-TX).

Hearing Democrats quote scripture is like watching a dog try to climb a tree. Funny and pathetic at the same time.

At least it is not as bad now as when, during impeachment, they quoted scripture, the Federalist Papers and spoke of the "original intent" of our Constitution.

That was so bizarre I had fears that mass psychosis of the left was a sign. A sign, perhaps, of the final days, of the apocalypse. 

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Marie Cook - 11:37 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001  - #60 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

Aml

Quoting scripture is easy. Living it is what is hard. The thing is if one believes the scriptures one does not steal elections nor approve of elections being stolen. 

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Mrs. Parker - 01:45 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #61 of 264

Didn't he continue to cat around at night, coming home to his wife and daughters stinking drunk, for several years after this reported conversion?

I guess he missed the part about putting aside worldly pursuits. 

Tony Karp - 02:58 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #62 of 264
In the end, GW Bush was a uniter -- He united his enemies

J Swadesh - 08:19 pm PST - Jan 26, 2001 - #55 of 60

Thanks to GW Bush, this will now extend into the law and into presidential actions:

Boston Globe <http://www.globe.com/dailyglobe2/026/oped/Bush_s_cruel_trip_backward+.shtml>

Bush said, ''It is my conviction that taxpayer funds should not be used to pay for abortions or advocate or actively promote abortion either here or abroad.'' His decision will defeat his own political purpose. Family planning research groups, such as the Alan Guttmacher Institute, last year said that if US funding levels were restored to the $540 million, the following would happen:

Nearly 12 million more couples in developing countries would gain access to modern methods of contraception.

There would be 4.3 million fewer unintended pregnancies, 1.5 million fewer unintended births, 500,000 fewer miscarriages, and 2.2 million fewer abortions each year.

There would be 8,000 fewer deaths from unsafe abortions, 7,000 fewer deaths from other causes related to pregnancy and 92,000 fewer deaths of infants.

Also discouraging is President Bush's immediate, in-your-face use of two of the country's most divisive issues.

He has imposed a gag rule on women's health centers abroad that receive any foreign aid from us. If a women's clinic that does not do abortions but that so much as counsels women on abortions that are medically necessary ("If you do not end this tubal pregnancy, you will die"), the United States government will cut off funds to the clinic.

This means that untold numbers of women in poor countries will not get prenatal care, birth control and other desperately needed treatment. For heaven's sakes, why punish them? They didn't even vote for Al Gore.

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Tony Karp - 03:18 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #63 of 264
In the end, GW Bush was a uniter -- He united his enemies

Less than one week old, and the Bush "presidency" is starting to get a little scary.

If presidencies were seasons, I'd say we're at the beginning of a really tough winter. 

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k l epperly - 04:56 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #64 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

I stay away a couple of days, and all the haters come out to play!

This thread should be downloaded for future reference.

Just leftie bigots who think they have a "pass" for hating Christians--but everyone is watching, and when the commotion dies down Ashcroft will be in office and the haters will just be fulminating failures.

The Ashcroft nom will go down as anti-Christian McCarthyism. 

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Thomas Moreton - 05:04 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #65 of 264
Ongoing protest: Phone the White House, 202-456-1414; ask for President Gore!

More than a few Christians have been phony hypocrites using religion for political/power purposes over the centuries. Why should it be any different now? 

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k l epperly - 05:07 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #66 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

and HOW you hate them, right? 

Marie Cook - 05:08 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #67 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

Pity, pity would be the appropriate word. 

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k l epperly - 05:45 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #68 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

You have a funny way of defining "hate"--but this is the post-Clinton, deconstructed America. Beware of calling evil, good. Your distaste for Pentacostals is what's guiding you, not charity.

Just as Ashcroft won't have to endure the bigotry of Kennedy and Leahy forever. The procedural gambits are running out, and the Dems are starting to look worse and worse. 

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Marie Cook - 05:48 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #69 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

Only to fanatical Republicans who have too much hate in their hearts to have room for God. 

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k l epperly - 05:51 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #70 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

Careful, that in your passion, you don't nudge your fellow Christian-haters out into the light of day. Could prove embarrassing. 

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Julie St. John - 06:00 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #71 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

I don't hate Christians. I hate bigots. It seems that some self-proclaimed Christians feel that their religion gives them a license to impose their values on others. Tell me, Aml or KL, what do you think of my self-proclaimed Christian cousin's belief that this is a Christian nation and that it doesn't matter if the Constitution is overthrown as long as there is a "Christian" back in the White House? 

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Marie Cook - 06:01 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #72 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

My fellow Christian haters? I do not hate Christians. I do not even hate pseudo Christians. I figure their God can deal with them better than I if he thinks they are worth the trouble.

I do not understand religion that is based on hate and hate is not what I get from your Bible. That is why I have such difficulty understanding people who trade their souls for power and money and take on the role of seeking vengence in the name of God. 

Verwirrung- 06:02 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #73 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

"How can there be peace when drunkards, drug dealers, communists, atheists, New Age worshipers of Satan, secular humanists, oppressive dictators, greedy money changers, revolutionary assassins, adulterers, and homosexuals are on top?" -- Dr. Pat Robertson, apparently describing his vision of the coming Bush II administration

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Buzzerman- 06:05 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #74 of 264
Sandra Day O'Connor and O.J. Simpson -- the ultimate golf twosome

I thought Christians disapproved of liars, but maybe they made an exception for Ashcroft, I don't know.

In a narrow sense, Bush *is* a Christian. His actions and statements *do* follow the narrow Calvinist model of Christianity -- a presumption that one's moral fiber is directly proportional to one's material wealth; a respect for life that begins at conception and ends at birth; a reverence for worldly kingdoms and power; a belief that salvation can be attained by faith alone, with good works irrelevant.

To Calvinists, and other legalistic churches like Reconstructionists (Pat Robertson's fiefdom), the idea of a Church of Love is a threat to their agendas. So just like the Pharisees were also Jews, Bush and his henchmen are also Christians... 

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k l epperly - 06:06 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #75 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

I can tell what YOU think of your cousin. 

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Julie St. John - 06:11 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #76 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Is that the best you can do, KL? Do you truly have no problem with his belief? And what do I think of my cousin since you're so perceptive? 

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k l epperly - 06:14 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #77 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

So silly. I don't even know if your cousin exists...why would I engage you in a conversation about a conversation?

Talk about what YOU believe, and I'd be interested. 

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Julie St. John - 06:22 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #78 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

I don't believe that it's okay to trash the Constitution in order to have a "Christian" back in office. Do you agree with me or disagree? 

Marie Cook - 06:25 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #79 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

A Christian would not trash the Constitution. a Christian would not prevent the counting of votes. A Christian would not accept the USSC giving them the election. A Christian would not support Bush being President. There is so much that a Christian would not do that a Republican seems comfortable doing. 

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k l epperly - 06:30 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #80 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

Hm. Sinjin--You took "Deconstructionist Logic 101," didn't you?

I guessed from how you asked that question.

Humbly, I'd like to remind you that I'm from a different era of Western Civilization. A dinosaur, I'm afraid, so we'll have to take your question and break it down into the underlying premises and assumptions.

First of all, you say a Christian is "back in office," which implies that there weren't Christians there before. Agree or disagree?

Second, I dispute any Constitution-bashing is going on. Please specify exactly how the document sacred to so many American Christians is being bashed. Hint: nowhere in the Constitution is a Christian precluded from serving high office, however Schumer might not like the prospect.

After you describe how the bashing is happening, we'll find out if I disagree with it or not.

I know this process is straining to the New Left from the New Universities, but please bear with me. 

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Caitlin Griswold - 06:36 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #81 of 264
Lost her job at the M & M factory, supervisor caught her tossing out all the little "Dubyas"

There is so much that a Christian would not do that a Republican seems comfortable doing.

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Verwirrung- 06:38 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #82 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

"Killing for the joy of it is wrong, but killing because it is necessary to fight against an anti-Christ system ... is not only right, but the duty of every Christian." -- Paralife Ministries newsletter

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Marie Cook - 06:38 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #83 of 264
We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love, one another...Jonathan Swift

Must have been the early ancestors of Republicans, not true Christians. 

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Caitlin Griswold - 06:40 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #84 of 264
Lost her job at the M & M factory, supervisor caught her tossing out all the little "Dubyas"

Actually the slogan I heard, "There was only one true Christian and he died on the cross." I guess that explains the rest. 

Julie St. John - 06:48 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #85 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Hey, Klep, apparently you missed your reading comprehension classes. But I see you've learned how to spin and twist well. Let's go back to what I really said and I'll attempt to clarify it for you.

My self-proclaimed Christian cousin said that he found trashing the Constitution acceptable as long as it resulted in putting a "Christian" back in office. His argument is that Clinton was not a Christian despite is profession of such belief and his regular attendance at Church. Thus his use of the phrase "back in office".

"Trashing the Constitution" would be shorthand for a Supreme Court that stopped the counting of legitimate votes in order to proclaim a particular candidate the winner.

Whether or not you agree that this is trashing the Constitution, my cousin did, and said that it was okay because it resulted in a "Christian" being back in office.

You claim to be a Christian, Klep, don't you? Do you agree with my cousin that America would be better off as a theocracy? 

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k l epperly - 07:00 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #86 of 264
Church and charity, synagogue and mosque, lend our communities their humanity, and they will have an honored place in our plans and laws

I told you I wasn't much interested in rehashing a conversation you had with a cousin, a conversation I wasn't part of. It's second hand, and exists here only in YOUR memory. If your issue is your cousin, talk to your cousin.

You know, school just does not prepare children these days to construct a coherent argument . I suppose they impart some sort of currency to personal expressions of distaste...

1> Lose your cousin, and describe the nature of the "bashing" in terms apart from your dislike of your relative. 

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Julie St. John - 07:07 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #87 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Please point out the post in which I used the term "bashing" if you want to be so particular Ms. Klep.

I believe I defined the trashing of the Constitution adequately in my previous post, in a way that did not depend on my cousin at all. Let me rephrase my final question from my previous post in a way that excludes the use of the word "cousin" as you seem to have some kind of hang-up about that word: Do you believe that America would be better off as a theocracy?

I ask this because I have heard other self-proclaimed Christians aver this, whether you like it or not. It's quite clear to me that not all Christians feel this way, but I'd like to know what you think, Ms. Klep. Do you suppose you can answer a simple yes-or-no question or will I be treated to more evasions? 

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Chris George - 07:13 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #88 of 264
"It ain't over 'till the last dog dies.".....Bill Clinton

Remember the link we had to the Baptist Press? (I can't get it to link now) "Evangelicals unaware inaugural event was sponsored by Unification leader". Tells about the 1,400 Evangelical and Fundamentalist preachers who walked into what they thought was to honor Billy Graham, and Moon himself turned out to be the host. The article sounds as if the man writing it was trying to make amends for some outrage expressed by some of his followers. His "Oh, we had no idea" baloney must not have sold well with some of his sheep.

I have found this article to be a powerful tool in opening a dialog with my beloved fundies who happen to be leaders in a large church in this area. They are very, very, very disturbed and intend to pass it along to some other people in the church.

Prior to this, nothing I said made any difference in their thinking. I have been trying to tell them for a couple of years that Bush is NOT a Christian. I'm also questioning them about the son of Billy Graham, Franklin, who opened the inauguration with a ringing prayer about wealth and honor coming from God! (To hell with the poor people).

This is the first time they have listened to me, and it was that article. Send it to everyone you know in the religious community. Make copies and pass them out. It works. 

kittey morgan - 07:16 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #89 of 264

Reborn Conservative means no jail time. You are washed of all crimes and sins, with all absolved and forgotten. It's used frequently by people who find themselves in dire straits and used flagrantly. I would assume GWB has used this more than once and/or made sure it was available. GWB is NO born again, never has been and never will be. It is used as a tool for escaping punishment and political purposes. I find all of this religion RW and otherwise quite amusing. Especially when used for convenience. Seems to be the par these days..Shades of Jim and Tammy Baker but what can one expect out of con artists and the little red map. 

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Julie St. John - 07:16 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #90 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

I remember that article and that is a good idea. I attempted to convey my doubts about Shrub's convictions to my cousin but he chose, at that point, to end the dialog and pray for me. If anyone can provide that link I would like to pass it along. 

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Verwirrung- 07:19 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #91 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Remember the link we had to the Baptist Press? "Evangelicals unaware inaugural event was sponsored by Unification leader".(I can't get it to link now)

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paul lukasiak - 07:27 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #92 of 264
You've got a heritage of defending German patriots like Karl Donitz, Ernst Rommel, & Adolf Hitler...We've got to stand up, or we'll be taught these people were giving their lives and their honor to some perverted agenda--Johann Askroftt

Fascinating...

shrub used his (proclaimed) status of being 'born again' to garner votes from other 'born agains' much in the same way that Joe Lieberman used his (proclaimed) status of being a practicing Conservative Jew to garner votes from other Jews.

And when we examine the actions of both men within the context of their claims, what we find is voluminous supporting evidence and scant contradictory evidence that Lieberman was telling the truth.

Ane we find vitually no supporting evidence, and voluminous contradictory evidence, that shrub lied about his conversion.

and of course, when the latter information is pointed out, the freepers go into mega-hissyfit mode.

The words "born again" and "Christian" are rendered meaningless when someone like shrub uses them to describe himself.

Being 'born again' is not the same as deciding to go to church once a week. It is literally a REBIRTH--an experience as transforming of the circumstances of ones life that the only comparison that can be made is to the the experience of leaving the womb itself, and entering the world.

John Ashcroft is an excellent example of a born again Christian The fact that he is also a racist, homophobic liar is irrelevant--ashcroft is human, and subject to human frailty. The issue is not theology, it is phenomenology---can someone be reborn and NOT have it be obvious to those around one? Perhaps that is possible if someone had lived their lives in the 'path of righteousness' before actually experiencing "rebirth", but shrub does not fall into that category.

Ashcroft ACTS like someone who has experienced a profoundly life-transforming event. I think that the test of whether or not someone is genuinely "born again" is whether or not they act like someone who claims to have been abducted by aliens. Some folks never get over the experience of rebirth or alien abduction. Most, after an initial shock, manage to incorporate it into their daily lives--but only after making it clear to those around them that something profound HAS happened to them.

And I'd believe that shrub was abducted by aliens long before I'd believe he ever actually was "born again". 

Julie St. John - 07:29 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #93 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Thanks, Verwirrung, I've sent it off to him and a couple others. 

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Verwirrung- 07:35 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #94 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Being 'born again' is not the same as deciding to go to church once a week. It is literally a REBIRTH--an experience as transforming of the circumstances of ones life that the only comparison that can be made is to the the experience of leaving the womb itself, and entering the world.

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kittey morgan - 07:35 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #95 of 264

Bush is still complaining about the indignities he suffered at the hands of these Birchers, with whom he was straining to have as much as possible in common. But he met with repeated frustration, because his Eastern Liberal Establishment pedigree was always there. In his campaign autobiography, Bush laments that many Texans thought that "Redbook Magazine," published by his father-in-law, Marvin Pierce of the McCall Corporation, was an official publication of the Communist Party. " Bab's daddy no less." What fakes!!!!!!!! 

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Julie St. John - 07:40 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #96 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

So, did anyone else notice that in response to my simple question there was nothing substantive offered by Klep and nothing at all offered by Aml? 

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Verwirrung- 07:42 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #97 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

They don't like direct questions about their leaders' moral fibre. I'm still waiting to hear what they have to say about Poppy Bush's $20 billion federal land giveaway to his Canadian employer. 

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Julie St. John - 07:43 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #98 of 264
"We lived, as usual, by ignoring. Ignoring isn't the same as ignorance, you have to work at it." Margaret Atwood

Don't hold your breath. 

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Verwirrung- 07:45 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #99 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

(Gasps for air) Thanks, Julie! 

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Buzzerman- 07:48 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #100 of 264
Sandra Day O'Connor and O.J. Simpson -- the ultimate golf twosome

Verwirrung -- your tagline is inaccurate. Have you forgotten the DUI's? :-) 

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(Deleted message originally posted by kittey morgan on 07:58 am PST - Jan 27, 2001)

Verwirrung - 08:00am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#102 of 264)
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

Thanks Kittey...I guess the narcotics trade is just bred into them... "Leading America into the 19th Century"

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Elaine Supkis - 08:08am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#103 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

Thank you, Kittey, your history lessons of our ruling class are great reading.

Drug dealing and the ruling class...wonder if anyone is going to write a book about that subject.

They make money dealing drugs. And then make it illegal and make money stopping others from dealing drugs. Think about the history of tobacco and America. Addictions.

They need addictions just like they love cartels and monopolies. Anything to get richer and more powerful.

One tool they have been using lately, though, to disguise themselves, is to pretend to be servants. This is why the Bushes have foul personal habits, talk mushy (grind teeth) and act like trailer trash. To fool the servants and the gaping public at large.

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(Deleted item originally posted by kittey morgan on 08:09am Jan 27, 2001 PST)

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Elaine Supkis - 08:09am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#105 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

PS, Bush and Cheney and Greenspan etc, they are all witches who practice black magic and laugh at the born again dupes who are too dimwitted to realize this.

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kittey morgan - 08:10am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#106 of 264)

About time some people see the light.

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Elaine Supkis - 08:12am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#107 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

Ah, Kittey, thanks for reminding us about the beggars. The Bushes love beggars.

They also love wrecking economic wealth.

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(Deleted item originally posted by kittey morgan on 08:17am Jan 27, 2001 PST)

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kittey morgan - 08:17am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#109 of 264)

Any of this sound familiar today????? LMAO

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Elaine Supkis - 08:21am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#110 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

So...he belonged to the DKE but wasn't in the frat house.

HE DID USE THE TOMB. And this is the Key. He was central to the rituals. And I am beginning to suspect that not all DKEers were party to the top ritual, the naming ritual, the one where the skulls and the book and the sword and the crown and the fool's cap is involved.

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(Deleted item originally posted by kittey morgan on 08:22am Jan 27, 2001 PST)

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kittey morgan - 08:23am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#112 of 264)

To be continued if wished and also on another place.

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Elaine Supkis - 08:25am Jan 27, 2001 PST (#113 of 264)
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

It is unique in one major respect: they have successfully used black magic to gain power at the skull and bones via Geronimo's skull.

Insane, eh? But very real.

Elaine Supkis - 08:28 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #114 of 264
Thrice I was struck by lightning while in a house. This is totally improbable and statistically incredible. Next: the impossible

Kittey, do this thread at Online Journal.

It is the key, you know. Ultimately, the key to everything.

They are not for the British Empire. Think Holy Roman Empire. Even the British royals are HOLY ROMAN EMPERORS. My specialty is 1100-1300 AD. Very interesting time period. The Crusades, the Knights Templar, the struggle for power between Church and State and other religions...Mongols, the whole kit and kaboodle. 

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winston barclay - 08:42 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #115 of 264
I could do better if I tried. Really.

W is a sort of Christian. Unfortunately, there are a whole bunch like him, and they think they should have to power to define what Xianity is for everyone, turn their peculiar obsessions into laws, and prepare for Armageddon. They now how one of their own in a position to make it happen. 

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Verwirrung- 08:45 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #116 of 264
George W. Bush: Leading America into the 19th Century

And the Reverend Moon personally crowned God as King of All Creation one week before the inauguration.

The Coronation of God Ceremony

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Brian Sponsler - 08:46 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #117 of 264

J Swadesh, thank you for your post explaining where you believe I lied.

You identified my "lies" as these:

"The guy whose tagline insists that Christians shouldn't identify themselves is bitching " is a lie, since I am not ... "bitching".

Obviously, the use of this slang expression for "complaining" bothers you. But you were complaining - I stand by that description. This accusation is incorrect, as well as utterly trivial.

You also have made the lying implication that I have invented something by continuing to use the phrasing "he claims". But facts have been presented. Facts that you refuse to address....

I don't address the facts you claim because I am willing, for the sake of the argument, to concede them. I accurately described them as your claims. I just don't give a fig about who he told when. Wasn't that clear?

It is even a lie to claim that "So, as one who supposedly understands how Christians are to act," since I have never made such a claim.

This is quite disinginous of you. Your consistent claim was and is that Bush does not behave as a Christian would. Obviously knowledege of how a Christian would act is necessary to make that conclusion.

Not content with leading W's auto de fe you attack me, criticizing me for describing your position as "idiotic", "pathetic", and for my baiting of Bloodaxe. However, "idiotic" and "pathetic" accurately describes your position, there is no theological reason not to use these perfectly good words. As for my needling of Bloodaxe, no reasonable reader could have read it as anything else. Did I get the part about the SCA right, Eric? 

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Brian Sponsler - 08:54 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #118 of 264

There also seems to be some confusion among the secularist here that slang expressions, especially vulgar slang expressions ("asshole", for example) are prohibited to Christians. This idea must have come from your 3rd grade Sunday School teacher - maybe the last time you were in Church.

Then there is quite a bit of Temperance Union propaganda creeping in - seeming to hold, against all evidence - that Christians are required to abstain from alcoholic beverages. One is reminded of C.S. Lewis' statement that few things annoyed him as much as a Temperance meeting gathering and declaring itself to be a church. 

Franny Rose - 11:19 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #119 of 264
Democracy, quite simply, was poisoned to put George W Bush in the White House. -- UK Guardian, 12/14/00

Chris, Maybe you can find a way to let your fundies know about the Falwell-Moon connection. Here's one link that mentions it, but I'm sure you can google up others. <http://www.watch.pair.com/heritage.html>

Actually, I believe Moon was instrumental in the founding of the original Moral Majority.

I've also read about a substantial ($500k) gift from Moon to Tim LaHaye, but I don't have any URLs at hand. That might be worth a google, too. 

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The Sebastian Cat - 11:36 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #120 of 264
I'm not the president but I play one in texas.

Aml,

Re: Post #17

The courts said O.J. was inoccent.

By the way, they also say the chimp is the potus! 

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J Swadesh - 11:39 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #121 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Brian

But you were complaining - I stand by that description.

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J Swadesh - 11:40 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #122 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Paul

John Ashcroft is an excellent example of a born again Christian The fact that he is also a racist, homophobic liar is irrelevant--ashcroft is human, and subject to human frailty. The issue is not theology, it is phenomenology---can someone be reborn and NOT have it be obvious to those around one?

"The answers are surprisingly unresponsive and often are inconsistent with the hearing record and with Sen. Ashcroft's own record. They are 'answers' in the sense that there is text after the question marks, but they are not answers to the point of being responsive. ... The refusal to provide substantive answers is another factor that senators will have to take into account in deciding how they will vote. I will say that if President Clinton or a Clinton nominee had provided these answers, some Republicans would be calling for impeachment or a subpoena." <http://www.roevbush.com/leahystatement.html>

I have found more evidence that argues against Bush having been born again: his own description. He describes his "re-birth" as a seed being planted. This is not consistent with the description in the gospel of John. I think this is an important line of examination. 

J Swadesh - 11:41 am PST - Jan 27, 2001  - #123 of 264
"Don't tell me you're a Christian. Let me figure it out."

Tony

I have always been fascinated that Christianity, which you would think would be the gentlest of religions, is actually the most agressive in forcing their beliefs on others.